who still thinks Jeremy is untradable? for his and all our sakes, i pray he gets traded to a team that will actually use him.
but the rockets are using him the way they want to use him. i don't see why rockets wish to trade JLin based on the reason that they have no use for JLin.
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No way Rockets' coaches are going to give more minutes unless either Harden gets injured (and they need a PG) or Lin starts shooting as good or better than Dougie, because as someone pointed out at CF, Rockets' coaches believe that Dougie's shooting spreads the floor to allow Harden to take it to the rim or shoot pull up jumpers. I at least see their perspective. Now, what I don't understand are two items:1. Why Rockets' coaches don't at least try several games with Lin as a PG and "force" Harden to play more of a SG? Perhaps Rockets are afraid to "force" Harden to do anything?2. If Lin knows this, why doesn't he attempt more shots in games? Lin has nothing to lose because really, no way Rockets are going to bench Lin and play him less than 20 minutes or start Dougie.
Rockets wish to have one player on each side of the floor who can run plays and drive. The original plan when they got Harden may have been JLin and Harden on each side of the floor, creating shots or running pnrs. McHale mentioned that each player is strong going to left and right respectively and this fits in with the system of having and attacker on each side of the floor.Now, its Harden on one side of the floor (as always) and Parsons, Delfino, TD or JLin on the other.The other players are not being played as the mirror of Harden are just there to space their floor. Imo, they don't really want the PG to be a the main playmaker. That's not their "system".
Rondo is lucky that he's not expected to score 18 points every night. I think if Lin was on Boston and played 38 minutes per game, Lin could average 12+ and 10 assists per game. I am pretty sure of this.
Douglas's shooting spreads the floor...Hahaha he sure spread the floor good for 3 quarters with his 0/4 shooting.I like him, but he's streaky and undependable, but he plays good enough D, much better than Harden.
Maybe Lin doesn't really care if he's benched for most of the game. He doesn't play like he's trying to prove that he can shoot or score.
He's trying to be a good team player but I think it's backfiring.
He's trying to stick it to the coaches. That's why he's getting benched.
You mean when he popped that 3 at the end of the first half?
Seeming disinterested in scoring when harden is in.
Gonna be here from now on. People here more in tune with my thoughts than CF where I have to constantly struggle to stay sane. LOL
Care to elaborate the difference? I find most CF posters to be "reasonable".
Just a lot of negativity if you like Jeremy Lin and voice your support for him. And lately, many have started being verbally abusive. Best to run from that hostile energy.
CF posters are reasonable. They just have different starting points. They care about filling roles for the Rockets coaches' vision for the team. JLin.net posters are also reasonable, but have a different starting point of what role would maximise JLin's potential.
You're right mostly. But I think if you're a JLin fan first and then a Rockets fan because of him, it's not a good place to be. Quite a bunch of them will cuss you out. I wasn't cussed out or anything, but I got sick of seeing other posters get verbally abused, and decided that was the last thing I needed to read on a constant basis.Believe me...my ignore list was fairly long too! LOL.
Who wants to be treated as a second-class citizen ["LoF"]?
I've been spending some time reading CF posts for the past two games. They are allergic to fans who are mainly interested in JLin being used to his potential. That is not being 'loyal' to the Rockets and is shunned.
popdoggy here...with a new name. Haha.@via Exactly right?
I just came from cf and it always end up the same. LOH vs LOF. After, I just come here to get my breath of fresh air. Like popdoggy, I wasn't cussed out but it's like a battlefield over there.
Yeah, I'm Jedster over there if you have seen any of my posts. I'm generally a pretty happy go lucky guy. But I have been noticing that my mood gets affected no matter how much I try to prevent all that hate from bothering me. So best just to enjoy the company of like-minded others and stay happy.
Welcome guys. We have a fair share of "basketball fans first" and "JLin fans first", but it seems like these days it rarely reduces to battlefield type discussions. For the most part, aside from trolls, people here have strong opinions, but at the same time try to address each other's points fairly.
Thanks!! Debates are fine...I mean it's no fun if everyone thinks the same way either. Just unacceptable to swear at people and call them names for their opinion. That's not the Jeremy Lin way...hahaha. I jest.
what is LOH v. LOF?
Lin Only Hater and Lin Only Fans. LOH are for the most party troll, I feel.
The older posters called people who supported the Rockets because of Lin LOF or Lin Only Fans.Then they spewed so much crap against Lin that the Lin fans started calling them LOH or Lin Only Haters.I made up a few new ones while I was there...like LLOH, Lin Lover Only Haters...but seems no one wanted to run with it... haha.
I should correct myself. Not all of the older posters are LOH...just some of them.
Occasional name calling here as well, but not nearly as serious as CF. To me, I understand slight name calling when debates get heated. Again from what I observed here, for the most part severe name calling is only used against trolls. :)
Thanks for the info. No desire to go that site.
Haha, well it is a Jeremy Lin fan site blog after all. Nice to meet you too guys.
LLOH, haha. I guess that started with player only fans. I can only guess its goes back to T-Mac and Yao only fans.I don't understand their obsession with thought police posters into being loyal only to the Rockets....creepy kinda.
I'm a Lin fan and a Knick fan, so this all sucks that much more for me.
I used to have a team. My friend was friends with the Vice President of the team and he gave us free tickets a few times, even courtside once where the cheerleaders came to take pictures with me (lol)...And then the team moved to Memphis...I was so deflated.
CF seems to be uncontrolled and their response is to just ignore the haters. Here, the extremist posts are deleted.
@rintintin"CF seems to be uncontrolled and their response is to just ignore the haters. Here, the extremist posts are deleted."No, posts are never deleted here because they are 'extermist'. I spend too much time on here to know that for sure! :pOn the other hand, I've heard that CF deleted a thread pointing an error and correcting CF's mistaken tweet which said that JLin let Lillard go off on JLin in the Portland OT game.
High five @wilcThe good thing about CF though is their post game interview posted by Clutch himself.So not all bad if you just want to see that and skip out on the comments after.
@ Pop Doggy, Fellow Vancouverite?And then they moved the Sonics as well! Fail!Yeah I do appreciate the reporting by Clutch. Very dedicated fan. Sometimes even quicker than the Rockets media staff!
@wilc Yup...big black hole of basketball in the NW.
Wilc,Yes, he deleted a thread started by Kinen.
@Pop DoggyThere was Portland, which made the playoffs like 20 years straight or something, and the Rose Garden crowd was really loud during those days. I never really developed an affinity towards that club though. Maybe because they became the Jailblazers for a while.And then I was left with rooting for the Raptors as the only Canadian team left....and then Vinsanity left!...downhill... I have heard rumors that they are trying to bring a franchise back to Seattle.
@alcsd, Thanks for the verification.
Kinein got banned by Clutch himself. Here is RealGM link that Kinein, himself said that he got banned. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1214736
The only time this sites deletes comments is for profanity or spam, not for biased or extreme comments, or even trolls.CF is run by some old timer Rockets fans. Not very fond of Lin fans. It is true that the CF admin deleted a thread that pointed out his error and banned everyone that participated in that thread.
@wilcYeah...better yet back to Vancouver, and then let us have Lin. I will buy season tickets. I will!Anyway, thanks for the welcome. I'm off to bed. Later everyone.
You are not able to edit your post unless you contribute to the site ("contributing member")....what does this mean? You have to donate money to Clutch. He states that he needs money (look at the bottom of the forum and you will see "contribute" button) to keep his site running. WOW!! He got plenty of advertising money by letting trolls controlled by that board. He won't banned trolls (because they mean more traffic to his site), but will not hesitate to ban anyone that dares to make him look bad.
Am more convinced that we should vote JLin for the All Star game to see him play!
Haha, we can't really see him play out his potential during Rockets games. Kinda sad that we need to vote him into the ASG just to see show what he is fully capable of at this point in his development.
Good one guys. It'd be f'in hilarious if he played well at the allstar, got compliments, go back to the rox and Mchale does the same stuff. It's a comedy act waiting to happen.
I think today's game has plenty of positives. We saw Lin with one of his best defensive performances against Rondo tonight, forcing Rondo to a very high TO rate and ensuring that Boston never really got their momentum going. It is not an understatement to say that Boston's game ticks according to Rondo's rhythm, and when you force Rondo to cool off, you disrupt the whole Celtics team. Rondo got his double-double again, but that's not really a true reflection of how the game went.We also saw Lin make some really pretty passes tonight, and not all of them were reflected in the assists total. The best one was this overhead pass to Smith under the basket. Smith got fouled and didn't finish the shot, so no assist, but it was great. Lin is far and away the best passer on the Rockets team - that much is obvious.However, in the last thread, everyone was focused on the negative of Lin not playing in the 4Q and disrespect and all that. I think it's fair to say that McHale should have brought on Lin to mirror Rondo and it was entirely luck that his decision to stick with TD paid off. But it gets me that we focus so much on the negatives rather than the positives. Lin had a very good game! It's not fully reflected on the box score and you might not appreciate it if you don't pay attention to defence, but Lin was good today.I do wish he puts up more shots though. I read recently that the stat that correlates most to salary is pts per game (yes, the volume stat, not efficiency, or WS or PER, but pts per game) and you can't get pts if you aren't at least somewhat selfish.
I want Lin to shoot at least 13 shots per game even if he plays only 20 minutes. I care less about his minutes than the number of shots he takes because if he's to become a good spot up shooter or whatever, then he has to shoot more during games, period. Just think of getting paid $25 Million USD to improve your shooting Lin. That's what it is.
Might be difficult to shoot 13 shots in 30 minutes! I agree though... Actually Lin has a pretty good pull-up jumper and floater at the free throw line area. He should go for it more often. His high arc leaves the defender stranded and it goes in at a good clip.
Yes, I agree, Lin played well. But, he's not being recognized for his good play by the national media or the Houston coaches, AND, we all know, except the Houston coaches, that he can play way way way better. The talk on ESPN is just how much Jeremy Lin sucks, if they talk about him at all.
ESPN is kind of bad though. TNT 4 lyfe
The point is, no one in the national media is gonna focus on Lin's D on Rondo, or his assists, etc. Instead, they'll focus on the negative or ignore Lin. I'll have to say, McHale's stupidity even confused the ESPN announcers, because they didn't know what to say about the fact that Lin was on the bench for the fourth.
Its all about perception though wiffle.Not playing in 4Q at all? Is he not even a contributor? What starter doesn't play in 4Q unless they were injured?We keep hearing McHale saying 'its because Dougie was doing well'...Well the fact is McHale/Sampson has this habit of keeping Lin OUT of 4Q or heck OT, how can Lin do well when he's kept out? They obvious believe Lin is a liability in 4Q otherwise why keep him off the court?They give TD plenty of chances to contribute during KEY parts of the game, which most of the time it backfires, yet they KEEP doing this. Why? I know why, its because Harden plays better with TD than Lin, but they don't realize if they just have Harden play SG and Lin be pure PG they'd get more out of them.JLin please just start asserting. Use your managers, start taking shots for yourself, stop PASSING AT THE RIM OMG FINISH YOUR DRIVES AND TAKE THOSE OPEN SHOTS! You practice open shots in games.
And oh yeah, stop passing to scrubs who can't finish. Let Harden deal with making plays for Asik, you work with Smith!
@wifflewiffleI will hire u as coach or assistant coach once I hit the jack pot and buy over the franchise. You sound like a decent coach for lin.
JLin is a not a JLin first guy. He is a basketball first guy. He will be more happy than not that he has contributed to the win.If JLin cares about his brand (perhaps he doesn't?), JLin's business agents have to look out for him.
@eb5attorney,You're right! That's a *great* way to look at it. He's being paid to acquire a jump shot. Lin should understand that he's not going to learn how to be an efficient scorer if he doesn't shoot and this team in the role he's been given, needs his scoring. He needs to use his minutes to get better. He needs to get comfortable shooting in games. We already know he's comfortable shooting in an empty gym.Lin looks like he's trying to think his shots in. He's worried about each shot being perfect. That's not how people get better at things. There's a good story: A crafts teacher at the beginning of a semester divided his class into two groups. One half would be graded on the quality of one pot they made. The other half would be graded on the quantity of pots made. At the end of the semester, the quantity half made better pots than the quality half. People get better by trying and failing over and over.Lin's place on the team is secure. He's going to get plenty of minutes. But that won't be true after this contract unless he starts using these minutes to get better! And that means scoring. That means being aggressive. Some of us understand that Lin contributes to wins in ways that don't show up easily in the box score. Most NBA coaches don't believe that! Lin has to learn to not just contribute to wins, but do it in a way that's irrefutable, that everyone understands. Otherwise, you're going to get taken out of games in the 4th quarter, and you can't help your team win on the bench. Do, but also seem. That's what Baltasar Gracian wrote and it was some of the best advice I've ever come across.
@michael terryAs a rather famous dictator once said, quantity has a quality all of its own!
I believe the thing that is wrong with him is all mental. I am convinced that there is something else going on behind the scene, we may never find out
"Just think of getting paid $25 Million USD to improve your shooting Lin."- Difficult to sell him the idea by appealing to his self-interest. This though: "you're going to get taken out of games in the 4th quarter, and you can't help your team win on the bench."
so for us not to have further outrage and complaining like other said and out of patience like other said. we should start to low our expectation for jlin now. Next game, got to play 18 min, I will happy, 10 pts, WOW. Great! Wonder how Jeremy and the coach communicate. How Mchale talk to jeremy after the game or will they even ever talk about the bench time after the game. what will jeremy said? "F-U"? "Stop F benching me again at 4th quarter" or thinking " next game I gonna play selfish I gonna make shots whenever possible and stop passing the ball and boost up my stat and don't give a shit about my team, my coach".
I don't think people should stop expressing their opinions that Lin should get more minutes or saying McHale's rotations are problematic, but I think the site would be a lot more interesting to read if those opinions were articulated in a reasoned way. Yelling McHale sucks does nothing for anybody.It's the reason why KHuang is so well-liked around here. He is so positive and he offers some very interesting insights. I disagree with KHuang at times but I always love reading his comments.However, I do think people need to be somewhat realistic. I do agree that 11/6 is too low for Lin. Lin is a better player than a 11/6. On a team like Phoenix, in Dragic's position, I think Lin could get 14/7 fairly "easily", which would put him among the top 7 or 8 PGs in the game right now. But people who think Lin should be averaging 20/8 is putting too much expectation on Lin. I am not saying you are one of them, Lydia, but you do get strains of that here and on Clutchfans.I do feel that McHale has a tendency to overplay players like TD and Delfino at times. He just really likes the 3-ball.
I said it elsewhere and I'll say it here too.My benchmark expectation for Lin is32 mpg, 16 pts, 8 assists, 1 steal and 2 TOs(or less).It's a bit high but I think the guy is good. That is...if he can get the minutes.
Lin should be able to get that, if he was playing with KMart. With Harden? Gawd he turned out to be even more of a ballhog than Melo. I'm sorry but Melo > Harden any day of the week.
Not likely to be possible at under less than 2 TOs, I think, especially not with a young team who may not anticipate the pass, and not at the type of USG% you need to avg 16/8. He'd still be elite if he manages 16/8 with 4 TOs.If Lin averages 16/8 at 4 TOs he will be an All-Star, easily.
Was replying to Pop Doggy there.@kenoshi i think there is no doubt that Lin's USG% would be waaaaay higher if he was playing with Martin/Lamb.
Still can't believe they gave away Lamb...Yer opening some old wounds there Wiffle :D
I never thought I'd see more of a ball hog than Kobe Bryant or Carmelo Anthony. When Harden has the ball, I swear it looks like he's playing one against five.
Looks like? He IS playing one against 5...Did you see the OKC game? It hurt my eyes...
@wiffle2 [your post @9:34 PM]This is one of the few places a Lin fan can vent and not get silenced. It's just that it's incredibly frustrating to see what's happening with the Rox and JLin. It will be equally frustrating to be expected to keep one's PCness in place while that crap is going down.I agree about KH's empowered approach. I too don't always agree with his opinions, but he's bold and crafty and comes up with insightful/ unique perspectives. His posts are always great to read.As for high expectations, it might be that the frustration of seeing JLin languish in the current Rox game plan taunts people with memories of what JLin have done/ can do. I think fans are more than willing to adjust their sights, but he needs to stop getting punished/ benched for no reason by the coach.
@via Agree with you. I may not always agree with KH's posts, but KH's views are nevertheless generally insightful and well argued.
KHuang hasn't posted any comment on this game thread yet...wonder what he has to say about the game...
McHale, are you really relying on 3s? ever heard of "live by the 3, die by the 3"?
@via Don't disagree with you there, mate! But it does get a bit ridiculous sometimes, I feel. Just so much anger and negativity. I am not quite as positive about the coaches as KHuang can be nor is hard love always the best love but I think there is a middle ground.
via: "As for high expectations, it might be that the frustration of seeing JLin languish in the current Rox game plan taunts people with memories of what JLin have done/ can do. I think fans are more than willing to adjust their sights, but he needs to stop getting punished/ benched for no reason by the coach."You know what I have to say about that, both about what Lin has done and what he would be doing. And why.
Well, we now have a definitive answer, for those that were giving the benefit of the doubt since last game was just against the lowly Wizards. As I predicted after the 38 pt Spurs game, nothing has changed. Lin plays a good first half (7 assists), gets benched before the end of the 3rd quarter for the rest of the game. And it wasn't like the Rockets were losing when Lin was in. Lin was +6, Douglas was +3.Rockets coaches apparently just want the PG to spread the floor for Harden, which Douglas is doing a pretty fine job of. Rockets coaches are complete morons. They have a Porsche, but they want that Porsche to haul some dirt. What a waste.
"They have a Porsche, but they want that Porsche to haul some dirt."Lol'ed at that one.I've held out hope that McHale will use JLin a different way once JLin shows McHale his playmaking, once JLin's health recovers, once JLin's shot comes back. It seems like even if McHale sees these things, he will not (never?) be convinced JLin should be used and developed as an elite talent.
Haha ditto loved that line real-dsb :D
They re saying the vw is working so no reason to use the Porsche. We ll just leave it at home to plow some snow.
They don't believe it's really a Porsche.
Yeah, they think the vw is the Porsche and the Porsche is the vw. On a rainy day, the Porsche can go back to being a Porsche so it can get all down and dirty :)
They want Harden to pad his stats sheet and make sure he get his 20+ points by forcing him plan even during garbage minutesThey want Harden only for all starThey don't want to look stupid if Lin ended up playing better than their max contract guy
I continue to say that NYC would never stand for this. The fans would boo the coach out of his seat if he pulled this stuff. He would have to be escorted from the game.I am praying that I update espn.com and that Jeremy Lin has been traded. This is not what he signed up for. The knee is healed, his jump shot is back and the kid is ready to dominate. Please please trade him to another team so that the fans across the world can enjoy his game. I believe they can trade players tomorrow.
Yup, McHale could never coach in NY, his truly bizarre moves would get him shredded by the NY media. I hope for a trade, too. A trade to the Lakers make so much sense for both teams. My guess is Dantoni is seriously pushing for the Laker management to trade for Lin, because he knows Lin can run his offense. Plus, he wants to get rid of Gasol, and Houston would love to get Gasol.
I think that would work, Lin for Gasol. Lakers needs a good, young PG until Nash comes back, and then for the long term future.
I'd say trade to Dallas, but is there anyone on Mavs that Rockets would wanna trade Lin for?Lakers, for Gasoft maybe?
Kobe would never let that happen tho :P
Haha if Lin becomes backup for Nash, he is truly like Tebow at that point :D
I think Kobe and Lin actually would get along, cuz Lin never slacks, works damn hard. And no, being Nash's back-up doesn't make Lin like Tebow, because, 1 - Lin can actually play, and 2 - there is no dishonor in being a back-up to Nash and learn and play with him.
I honestly won't mind that. If Lin gets 15-20 minutes a game learning from Steve Nash, it'll be great. Mind you, I don't like the Lakers but I'm a bigger Lin fan, so I have to sacrifice my personal angst.And besides, Nash is gonna play for a couple of years tops. So maybe Lin can take over after. One thing for sure...Dwight is more likely to convert and dunk those passes and alley oops that Lin will throw up.
Nonono don't get me wrong I don't me like Tebow in relative skills, I just mean the situation, and how everyone likes to compare those two :)
If there is a Christmas Miracle (remember the Rockets cut Lin on Christmas day last year...no heart) and Lin is a Laker I would probably start going to every Laker home game. Plus if Lin backs up Nash he would get 25 pts. D'Antoni would find a way to get Lin in there even with Nash.
It is so eerie how the Laker's season is turning out just like the Knick's season last year. Starting point guard out, star player frustrated, team underachieving, Mike Dantoni on the hot seat - then came Linsanity to save the season. Everything's happening the same way for the Lakers, except for the LA version of Linsanity. Yet, anyway.
Even Knicks fans are saying what the heck are the Rockets doing with Jeremy Lin?
So is half the sports media...I mean look at how many times the ESPN/CSN announcers were confused at what McHale is doing...
Harden and Lin plays the same role therefore a trade will be most ideal for both Lin and the Rockets. They can get someone that fit their system while Lin can play his natural position. I know people want to make it work but you cant fit a square into a circle. All this talk about adapting to your role is just excuses to say we can't find a way to fit you into something you're comfortable with so you figure it out. I all for developing your role and all but like I said you can ask a mechanic to steer a ship and visa versa. All players have to adapt but they are adapting with in their role.
the game was unbearable to watch, they are really too harsh on jeremy lin .
Also Jeremy is a rhythm shooter so he needs the ball to get going. These spot up and here and there balls passed to him is not going to do it. He would do well in a team like the Spurs where they all know what their role is or a young team that does not have more than one dominate ball hog. Jeremy is a unselfish player but he needs to have the ball in his hands. Harden just takes it to another level... in that he does not get others involved. It's basically everyone for themselves.
You know who the Rockets should have signed at PG instead of Jeremy Lin? Steve Novak. Novak would really be able to spread the floor for Harden. And obviously the Rockets don't need their PG to pass or get any assists, just shoot 3's. Novak would be the ultimate PG on the Rockets.
LMAO! And maybe the occasional pass to Smith for a quick dunk...Not to Asik tho until he decides to wash the soap off his hands first...
haha Novak the Guard-Forward. The new breed of NBA star.
McHale is living by the 3s. doesn't he know you could die by the 3s too?
I have watched all Rockets games this season as well as several other non-Rockets games this season (also watched most of JLin's games, not just highlights). What has been done to Jeremy over the last 2 weeks is exactly the reason why I stopped watching basketball prior to Linsanity- there is almost 0 team ball in the NBA anymore. Watching Linsanity was a breath of fresh air for me and I fully got back in to the NBA (I was moderately interested again with the way the Mavs beat the Heat 2 years ago). I even bought my first NBA Jersey in 17 years (JLIn NY #17)! I just loved the early offense, multiple pass-to-assist from not only Jeremy but by others on the team. The intensity of the players was simply awesome. I saw that happening in Houston at the beginning of the season but it looks like that probably won't happen. And that's sad because the Rockets have the pieces for that type of Team.Jeremy is a playmaker who makes everyone around him better and sacrifices himself for the team. But that is not respected much in the league and especially on the Rockets. The best teams play team ball and get everyone to have a few touches so if their star (in this case, Harden) goes cold, others can step up. That is not the case for the Rockets as they move as Harden does. Harden has a bad game, Rockets lose. I really wanted to be a Rockets fan but if the games are to be played like this and they are going to treat JLin like this, I will renew my disinterest in the NBA and (for sure) won't be interested in the Rockets. The way JLin plays gave me the excitement I had when I first got interested in the NBA back in the 80s and through the early 90s. Much more Team ball back then. That's why the scores were higher back then…not waiting around with the ball on the wing on an ISO play for 15 seconds. All I want to say is the Rockets, GM Morey, and Coaching Staff should really think about using JLin as a key part of the team, not just a sideshow to attract viewers of certain ethnicities. Use JLin as the basketballl player he is…he has the potential to be a "real" All-Star! If they don't they will lose my enthusiasm as well as millions of others. What is a losing a League Pass membership, a couple Jerseys, several shoes, and a few team shirts, shorts and socks going to cost the NBA and the Rockets? Probably nothing…but multiply that by millions. Finally…benching JLIn this many times is ridiculous. If this keeps happening the Rockets will lose a fan…a fan that talks about the Rockets and the NBA alot… and makes a lot of purchases… aw well… I'll go back to spending money on the Cowboys.
I didn't watch the game tonight but I had high hopes after seeing 7 assists that JLin would be more involved in the offense. But why didn't he get any PT in the 4th quarter?I was watching the highlights on NBA.com and something just dawned on me.Harden's role is supposed to be Lin's in the current Rockets team! We all know this but I'm just surprised that Houston has no current plan to change their current system to make Harden and Lin work.If Morey and Les believe that Harden is a better playmaker than Lin in their system, then Lin is redundant in Houston. He's definitely an asset to get the 2nd star to complement Harden. The only question mark is if Les believes Lin can work together with Harden and if he's willing to let go of Rockets' international appeal in China.What I'm interested to see is how McHale will use Lin in the back-to-back games with Toronto and Knicks on Sunday and Monday. Would he play Lin more in NY game to rest Harden? If nothing changes, Lin's role is clearly redundant. Lin has become a valuable trade asset.I didn't believe this before but not playing Lin in the 4th multiple times when he played good games indicate his role is redundant with Harden. If Lin's PT continues to disappear in the 4th quarter, Lin to Lakers trade is no longer a speculation. It's a good thing I haven't bought Houston Rockets jerseys. Let the waiting game begin!
Haha...I laughed when you said 'It's a good thing I haven't bought Houston Rockets jerseys'I haven't either. But I have a Knicks one. Looks like we will both be waiting.
Another potential development is to let Lin run the 2nd team to maximize Rockets production and increase pace while at the same time increasing Lin's value as an asset.Whether any trade happens or not, Morey will look like a genius!Personally, I'd like to see this happen rather than seeing Lin not developing by not getting PT and be the playmaker to show his true value.
I agree that Lin is a valuable trade asset. I don't think he is redundant because he plays the same role as Harden. Imo he is redundant because guys like TD can fill JLin's role.
haha :) welcome Pop Doggy!Yes, let's wait a little longer before splurging our precious dollars on the wrong merchandise :)I might need to find discounted Knick's jersey just to be safe. lol
@wilc, think about it. Lin's original role before Harden comes is never a spot-up 3PT shooter. Harden took Lin's spot as the PG and playmaker and Douglas is a better complementary Shooting Guard than Lin.
psalm, exactly. And, the only way what McHale is doing with playing Douglas in the fourth over Lin makes any sense is if they are working on trading Lin, and seeing if Douglas can play with Harden come crunch time in the fourth. Otherwise, Kevin McHale is an all time idiot.
That is exactly right. Harden is the PG of the Rockets. Lin's basketball role has been reduced to jump shooter that chases the opposing PG around, and right now, Douglas is the better shooter.Lin is still a bargain at $5 million a year, considering he brings in so much sponsor money. There is no way Lin will be a Rocket for the 3rd year of the contract worth around $15 million. They will try to trade him for the third piece (after acquiring a star PF in the offseason) next year.Let's hope Lin uses this time wisely and develops his game further.
"Lin's original role before Harden comes is never a spot-up 3PT shooter."Hmmm... I don't know about that. I wouldn't go as far as saying he was going to be a spot-up 3PT shooter. But neither is he a spot-up 3Pt shooter now with Harden, as the season has progressed.I remember at the end of the pre-season thinking this is not a PG ran system at all. You see guys like Delfino and Parsons running the point. The difference now is that Harden runs point.My point is even with KMart, the system would not have featured the PG as the main playmaker. He would have been to, I admit to a lesser extent redundant, as well.
*He would have been, I admit to a lesser extent, redundant as well.
C dub: agree with you that Lin should just use the time to develop his game. I hate how he is expected to be a catch and shoot guy but if he manages to become that, then I think it actually helps him by expanding his game
@wilc - probably McHale's trying to run the team like how Phil Jackson did, minus the triangle offense.
wilc: "I remember at the end of the pre-season thinking this is not a PG ran system at all. You see guys like Delfino and Parsons running the point. The difference now is that Harden runs point.The odd thing is how calcified the roles seem to be.Harden is in, Lin gets Chalmerized. Harden is out, Lin slides into Harden's role (originally Lin's role), and Lin goes off Linsanity-style. Everyone else's role is exactly the same, except they're playing off Lin instead of Harden.Then Harden comes back, and Lin is Chalmerized again, and everyone else's role stays the same, like the Spurs game never happened.
@Eric I do agree that the roles are calcified, but I don't think there was a Harden type ball dominant role before the Harden trade.Without Harden the team would have gone a different direction. There would not be a "Harden" type ball dominant role if we had Kmart. At the end of pre-season without Harden, the Rockets did not have the Harden role. It was more balanced ball handling, with responsibilities shared between JLin, Parsons, Delfino.Now, I think the 'balanced offense' that the team had in mind in pre-season has been jettisoned. The "Harden" role has been created. Thus with Harden out, there is a void left in this new system for JLin to step in to go Linsanity style. This Linsanity/Harden role was not, imo, originally planned.Anyways, that's just my impression how the Rockets system has changed from pre-Harden-acquisition balanced offense to the post-Harden-acquisition ball dominant guard (hero ball?) offense.Doesn't matter what the system would have looked like without Harden.The fact is, as you and psalm234 is saying, Lin is Chalmerized in the current system.
if Kevin McHale plays his cards right, he will play Douglas as back-up scorer for Harden. a back-up SG post is better for Toney, considering in his younger years he was a shooting guard. yeah Toney's height is definitely an issue, but he is quick enough to return to defense. he can just piss off the other SG by being quick to return on that SG's face. let Jeremy run the point, relegate Harden as SG, bring in Machado as back-up PG, and design an offense similar as to how Pop did it with Parker and Manu.
Good plan - unfortunately those 2 idiots (MH/KS) will not change. It has been 1/4 season passed, and I was disappointed one game after another. The Rockets coach team & management team totally sucks!
Before the game, many were predicting Rondo and Garnett would kick ass. Rockets won by hardly using Lin in the fourth quarter and the bench contributing major minutes - how good was that!Rockets have 8-1 record against Eastern Conference teams; just shows that Knicks are playing on fool's gold.
Guys come on, give credit when it is due. I do not like the knicks but they are good IMO. I am not saying they are a shoe in but for now, they seem real legit.
Knicks are the best team in the east right now. That's not saying much, though. I can see Knicks making conference finals and even beating Miami (I'm betting Dwyane Wade has lost a step). But, they'll get crushed by OKC in the finals.
or by the Spurs :)
Knicks do rule the East.. but as long as the Bulls' playing that same tight defense they had vs Knicks game, they'll have to contend with that.
We also shouldn't count the Miami heat out. Too Early, Too Early. They still have Lebron.
I didn't mean to offend the Knickerbockers, who can plan their conference finals tickets now. Rockets' main hurdle is to qualify and seems to have the harder road to win their (Western) conference.
If you're a young team, beat the old contenders now before they gear up for the stretch run into the play-offs.
I will review the tape and measure the spacing with my micrometer and I can guarantee you that the spacing on the floor is no better with Douglas than it is with Lin. Again ... This is just bs coach spin. McHale needs to be called out. There just isn't a reporter smart enough or brave enough I guess ...
My point is ... Nobody is hugging or denying TD the ball... It's all just KM bullshit.
especially in this game.
JLin Highlights vs Celtics - 12/14/12
... And what of mchales comment that he wants ball in lins hands more. Seems an odd way to get more touches sitting on the bench
Talk is worthless. Whether it's coming from a coach, CEO, president, whoever. Actions are the only things that count.
Exactly ... He is bullshitting . He needs to be called out.
During the Mavs' benching, I mentioned McHale's remarks as reported by a Chinese paper: "Jeremy played very well in the 3rd, but I didn't let him play the 4th, here is my problem/dilemma. I WAS INITIALLY PLANNING TO GIVE JEREMY MORE MINS BUT I KEPT CONSIDERING THE MATCH UP PROBLEM, AND SO I WENT WITH TONEY."McHale uses this rationale again last night:ClutchFans.net @clutchfansMcHale said he planned on putting Jeremy Lin back in, but Toney Douglas played so well that he made his decision for him.7:38 PM - 14 Dec 12---McHale should just print up cards with this statement and hand them out to reporters. Should save him from repeating himself.
I hope McHale will not keep "planning" to put JLin back in, yet somehow always find going with TD to make more sense [so he keeps benching JLin when he does nothing to deserve it.]
Something is not healthy in the way the McHale/Sampson duo is treating Lin. I do not trust those idiots..and for now, we can only speculate on their motivations for heavily favoring TD at the expense of Lin. Jeremy should look out for himself at all times, continue to work hard to improve his game and be more discerning as to whom he can trust completely.
It sometimes seem to me Les is the only one who wanted JLin.I've always found Morey's 1st contract offer o.O, being so favorable for the Nyk to match. We've read of how Les had screamed at Morey for letting JLin go and yet with that 1st offer, it was as if Morey [a master of probabilities] structured the offer in such a way that almost guaranteed the Nyk match. Perhaps he was just going through the motion, humoring Les, but then Les took over and decided to push things up a notch with another offer to deter the Nyk -> forcing JLin on Morey and McHale.They never really had plans for JLin [or revised their opinions of him, opinions for which they cut him the 1st time. -> After all, who wants to be proven wrong?]The coaching staff keeps finding non-reasons to bench him. Morey does nothing to halt the misuse. [Surely he can assess that JLin is not effective playing this way...]How is it possible everyone outside the Rox knows how to play JLin to his potential [and to the benefit of his team] EXCEPT the Rox coaching staff? How is this possible? As for Les, he's getting his money's worth with his Chinese deals.
* everyone knows how to play JLin to his potential
WT Fudge? match up problem?!? Lin limited Rondo and made him commit TOs, then call it match up problem? does McHale even know what "match up problem" means?
The coaches, Morey and Les might be kissing up to Harden so he can recruit his friends to come over. That is the only explanation I can think of. I had a weird dream that Les was okay with trading Lin. We shall see.
But the problem with that is benching Lin will only decrease his trading value. At least try to pad his stats or something.
If they pad his stats, then Harden's stats might suffer and they want Harden to play in the All Star
One thing Lin does not want is to be a backup. If they ask him to be backup (even though he is already a backup), I think he and his camp will ask for a trade. He had mentioned numerous times that he didn't mind people criticizing his games, they can call him average, but don't call him a backup.
If they keep benching Lin, will anyone accept Lin ? They have to increase his trading value for the benefit of their team.
I don't think they are going to trade him until the off season. And they won't do anything to help Lin out until after the All Star. After that, they will pad his stats and trade him. Harden has a lot of friends from being in the Olympics. I will say one thing Karma is Bitch. Watch out Les, Morey, McFail, and Samshit.
Forgot to add. By putting all your eggs in Harden could backfired them big time. I don't see Harden taking this team to the promise land as a cornerstone player.
if McHale thinks Harden can take them to the promised land, he's a bigger idiot than I thought. really bigger. I like Harden. actually I like him better than Westbrook, but he is inconsistent as inconsistency goes. also, Harden thrives on ISO plays. once defense contains him he's lost.
Harden does not have that "IT" factor. You can not build a team around him. He can be a secondary piece, but not the primary one.
Too bad Lin is a good person, if it were me , I will make sure that China and Taiwan will do business with him again.
"him" meaning Les
@alcsd - imho, if Morey REALLY wants a big superstar to come play for his team, he should play Jeremy MORE. no other sales spiel can work than simply putting, "our team needs a guy like you. our PG needs a player like you".
Perhaps it's time to start a campaign to get Lin into the allstar game.Vote for him not necessarily because he deserves to go, but to embarrass Alexander, Morey, McHale. They got the playmaker they wanted in Harden, now trade Lin for the 2nd allstar they are so ardent in getting.People can vote their conscience and declare exactly why they are voting form him. It's as a protest vote. If he gets in the protest will be heard loud and clear.
actually I rather he doesn't play in the All-Star game. Jeremy's getting the ire/hate of TONS of spectators now. he doesn't deserve the hate. I rather he do what Tim Duncan did - just relax and spend time with his loved ones.
I'm doing my best man!! Hope everyone else does too! :-D
JLin blocks Rondo
JLin post game vs Celtics - 12/14/12
He's a nice guy that always says the right things to the public but he's not an idiot. If his brother makes a comment on twitter about how he's being used (see his tweet after spurs game), then Lin definitely knows there is an issue with how they're using him.They're close, they talk, Lin knows there's a problem.
I don't think they will trade until the off season because it will make Les look bad to the Chinese sponsors. But I hope he ask for a trade if LA really bad him badly. I can imagine Cuban kicking himself right now for not going hard after Lin.
I mean to say "LA really want him badly."
I'm a Lakers team fan but I don't want that trade. really. I love Jeremy and was thankful for D'Antoni for giving him a chance, but another round of D'Antoni-Jeremy will NOT do anything good for Jeremy's overall development as a player. for Jeremy's development, a coach like Popovich can do wonders. also, Jeremy's production will decline once he plays with Kobe. if our idiot team owner Buss trades Gasol, who will be left to clear the boards once Howard gets injured? I have always said that D'Antoni should play Gasol as center rather than PF. after all, during 2009 Finals Gasol was schooling Howard in the paint. Rockets have enough talented young PFs - Motiejunas,T. Jones,Smith. what Rockets need is another big guy coming from the bench for Asik. if Jeremy gets traded, it'll better be to the Bulls. there's this joke in the Lakers boards that Phil said, "trade Kobe and let's talk". maybe I should add in "bring Jeremy to the Lakers and let's talk."
I hope he is traded to Dallas. The coach there has a brain.
yeah Carlisle is doing wonders for the Mavs, but they already got Collison, Fisher, and Mayo. who they're gonna let go?
Isn't Fisher on a one year contract? So he is gone after this season. I know he is very unhappy, you can't fake body language and facial expression. I think he wouldn't mind get traded to LA. Remember Nash doesn't have Phoenix medical staff anymore. He will learn from one of the best. But I still think the ideal situation for him is Dallas. And I don't see Dallas making a trade for him until the off season.
oh I thought Fisher got a two-year contract. well I hope LA does go after Fisher; after all he is pivotal player during LA's championship runs. he's a better backup for Nash than Morris, Blake, and Duhon combined. this time Cuban should go after Lin real hard. imagine Lin playing with a healthy Nowitzki. hmm....
I was thinking that Carisle is good for his development. Lets face it his teammates are jealous of his celebrity status (including Parson). One player doesn't seem to like Lin is Patterson.
forgot to add, because of their jealousy, he felt that he has to make them look good so they got his back. Lin is a smart dud, he thought he was building their trust. Apparently he was wrong.
I was thinking that too. if only Parsons and Patterson just appreciate that they're having a better season now than when they're with Lowry/Dragic...
Fields, Novak, Jeffries, Shump, and Chandler were happy to let Lin lead. He had their support. Here he doesn't have anyone so how can he led when they are not supporting him. So he was trying to build them up so they can support him. Fields was a true friend, I think that Parson is fake. I hope Lin is smart enough to see through him.
ugh, I got no respect for Tyson now. that guy just said Jeremy is not skilled to run Knicks offense and putting players in their right positions. like, what?!?! Jeremy ran TONS of PnR with Chandler when Melo and Amar'e were out and made him an important piece of Knicks offense when the two stars returned. seriously, Tyson did a Kobe and threw Lin under the bus?
@alcsd I agree with your comments on whether Lin has true friends in Parsons & Patterson. I do not see much chemistry on court with his rockets team mates. It was however obvious to any viewer that Fields, Novak and Jeffries genuinely loved and supported Lin.
Before turning in tonite, I wanna say, as much as I want lin to come to my lakers I think it's not a good idea. It's not a good idea for him to be traded at all anywhere. One of the in unintended consequence of a large contract is you gottacha perform. If you don't you get traded and traded. I don't want him to become one of those players that gets traded all the time and bounces around the league due to "potential yet to be realized". Lin just got to suck it up and realize his potential in Houston, then move on to the lakers :). As frustrating as it is, I gotta suck it up too like bad medicine. It doesn't mean I won't complain, but it won't ruin my day.
Here is my theory and to why Lin is passing so much. He thought that as a leader, he was supposed to make his teammates look good. And he if succeed, then they will follow him and they all would be a great time. But he forgot that almost every player on the Rockets (including his good friend Parson) is looking out for themselves. Almost all of them all selfish. The only person I would say is unselfish is Asik. The reason that Morey has always treated players like assets. Too bad Morey created this environment.
I meant "great team" and not "great time"
His gift is being the floor general. Let him do what he was meant to do.
I was reading a comment on Yahoo that suggested that mchale plays tony because the opposing team defense focuses on Lin so by playing TOny, it throws them off. Also, Lin is known to be a 2nd half guy so that is why Mchale probably knew defense would be on Lin and to secure a win, he played Tony to throw the opposing team off. However, this reasoning still shows he still has his little faith in Lin and there comes a point in time when Lin has to learn so sitting him out is still not a good idea.
Lin is attracting opposing defenders to him on the bench like a magnet?
@eric, what do you make of all this? Tonight was especially frustrating...and i'm still pissed. It just doesn't make sense.You bench your starters who's playing well for his back up bc he's also playing well? Way to show confidence in your starter.
When Lin is paired with Harden, Harden is the PG. When Lin is paired with TD, TD is the PG. What position does Lin play???? Mchale is such a stupid coach. Delfino, Morris, Parsons all bring down the ball during the game. The SFs, PFs and Center's outlet passes never goes to Lin. No respect for Lin "The PG". This team is crap. Knicks are playing good because everyone plays their rightful positions.
Every time I watch Felton play, I see a PG role that's tailor-made for Lin, surrounded by veterans who complement Lin's game, and managed by a coach who understands guard play.As far as McHale and his habit of pulling Lin off the ball, then out of the game, you reminded me of what he said about Lin in July:http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/mchale-sees-lin-as-a-starter-and-a-leader/“I told him he has a lot to learn and a lot of room to grow,” McHale said of Lin. “In our league, he’s just a young puppy, especially with the ball in his hands.”McHale praised Lin effusively the rest of the article, which made the "he has a lot to learn" and "young puppy" comments stand out as criticism.It's apparent McHale didn't trust Lin to be a reliable ball handler when the Rockets signed him, and the bias has stuck in McHale's brain.
k.smith,What do I make of all this ... I don't have much to add to what I've said several times already throughout the season. I noticed upthread that things I pointed out weeks ago just dawned on psalm234.It's like McHale erased the Spurs game tape and pressed rewind on Lin's status and role.I think McHale wants to use Lin as a 3rd guard and stagger his minutes with Harden, which can work as long as Lin gets to control the ball and run the offense. But - as I believe you pointed out - Harden plays too damn much. And when Harden is in the game, he's on the ball.Eye test, the team flow looks significantly better with Lin in the game, whether or not he's scoring. Morey's famous advanced stats must be saying something different, though.Fantasizing about a Lakers trade, I think Lin playing for D'Antoni would work out and it would work with Kobe because Lin has shown this season that he doesn't need 20 FGA/m to be effective running the point. He just needs consistent point touches, and he'd get them playing with Kobe in D'Antoni's system.But playing for D'Antoni isn't a necessity. Lin's success with Woodson proved that. Lin just needs to have the ball in his control, the authority to make decisions, and the freedom for his special basketball intuition to flow. The Spurs game proved beyond a doubt that Lin has still got it. He doesn't need to and shouldn't go Linsanity every game, but there is no reason for his production to be below his production for Woodson last season.The problem isn't Lin. He's improved this season. The problem is the ball is being taken from him. Instilling doubt, as McHale has done to Lin, is an awful thing to do to an intuitive player.
Correction: 20 FGA/g
Plus: When Lin is off the ball, the Rockets should use his active off the ball skills. Let him run off screens and cut. Lin's good at it. Woodson used Lin's off the ball skills. He's cut to the basket nicely a few times this season, but not nearly enough. The Rockets have Lin playing passively off the ball and out of the way too much..
"Instilling doubt, as McHale has done to Lin, is an awful thing to do to an intuitive player." I completely agree. Mchale, Sampson and Finch since Finch is the offensive mastermind. I'll be coherent and write more another day, because right now, i'm just feelin' a little sad.
I am just thinking is it possible that Mchale sits Lin out in the 4th because he is afraid refs might be biased against Lin? For example, calls might not be given to him and refs might deliberately give the opponents an edge? The spurs game ..maybe Mchale thought that refs would try to make Lin lose so Mchale tries to put someone else. I know it sounds silly but I would not bet against it.
Rockets vs Celtics | Lin + Team Highlights (12-14-2012) by Blaiyanhttp://youtu.be/3omBG9ODF9Q
http://www.nba.com/rockets/video/2012/12/14/ZOOM0001MOV-2325421Someone on CF pointed out that Lin said (at around the midway point of the video) that his knee is "getting better" and the swelling is "going down, through time". Seems to indicate that physically, Lin's knees are still not 100%, which may account for McHale's reluctance to risk Lin when not necessary. As anyone who plays pick up knows, muscles and joints swell up after strenuous exercise, but Lin was clearly talking in the context of recovery from his knee surgery. I have said this before, and I know everyone says it is an excuse, blah blah, but if his knee is still in recovery mode, it does somewhat explain his reluctance to drive in the Wizards game (because he had taken a huge beating in the Spurs game) and his limited minutes in the Boston game.Thoughts?
If he's really still recovering, then it's a great relief to know he is not being benched for no reason.But I'm curious then that I see no ice pack on Lin during the games or whatever. It's like Nash needs to lie on the ground and stretch to prevent tightness...so if Lin is worried about swelling, then he should be ice packing in between runs. I just wish someone would come out and say it outright that he's not at 100%. Instead the coaching staff have been saying other things like TD plays better D, or whatever. So I'm not fully convinced that his health is the reason for pining.
McHale has a tendency to disregard, relegate starting PGs. Last season, Lowry was the starter until he got injured. When he came back, he wasn't given his position back or had his playing time reduced because Dragic was playing well. In the end, the Rockets still missed the playoffs. Obviously, Lowry got traded to Toronto, but he outright said he couldn't play for McHale anymore. I KNOW SEE WHY. You don't disrespect your starting PG like that when he has been playing well and with heart and effort prior to his injury. Even if your bench player has been playing well during a certain stretch, you still have to sub him out for the starter. I did not see anything special Douglas did in the 4th quarter that warrant JLin to be benched. I'm sure coaches like Phil Jackson, Van Gundy's, Pat Riley, Rick Adelman, or Jerry Sloan will not do what McHale did. McHale is a great player in his days, but it doesn't mean he will be a good coach. You don't just teach X and O's but manange players psychologically as well; I think that's why Phil Jackson is such a great coach--he knows you inside out and knows how to challenge you. Yes, I'm still effen pissed McHale benched JLin.