Tuesday, November 13, 2012

Rockets vs Hornets Game #8 Pregame Thread

Rockets vs Hornets 5:00 PM (PT)

Next Three:
11/16 Rockets @ Trail Blazers  7:00 PM (PT)
11/18 Rockets @ Lakers 6:30 PM (PT)
11/19 Rockets @ Jazz 6:00 PM (PT)


  1. for those that doubt Jeremy would ever be traded , what do yall think about this article below? one thing for sure is Morey doesn't pull any punches when making trades or letting people walk. here's an excerpt

    "Namely Lin, who was going to be the one with the ball in his hands. That’s not how Harden works. So far this season, Harden has been the one controlling the offense, and for good reason. Harden is a better all-around offensive player by far and the Rockets have centered their offense around the 23-year old.
    It is due to this that the Rockets should now view Lin as expendable. Tony Douglas is more than capable of stepping in and playing back seat to Harden as the ball-handler, and he’s a better defender than Lin. Lin’s skill set requires him to have the ball more, and it’s just not happening. I imagine if the Rockets ever thought they had a prayer of getting a player of Harden’s caliber, they never would have traded Kyle Lowry or let Goran Dragic walk."

    Read more at http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2012/11/13/nba-rumors-would-the-houston-rockets-trade-jeremy-lin/?mb9Zmy3c90gjlMgs.99


    1. What a dumb and statistically debunkable article.

      Any team stupid enough to believe the utter lies and haterade in that article is not a team Jeremy Lin should be playing on.

      There literally is not a single truth in that article. Just about everything in that article can be disproved statistically.

      Fortunately, Houston seems to know they have a good player in Lin. Maybe they can't figure out what to do with him yet, but reports have been positive thus far.

    2. regardless of the stats, you still deny Jeremy could ever be traded?

      there is one thing this article points to that is sorely correct, like it or not before the Harden trade everyone believed this to be a Jeremy lead offense but ever since the trade that has prove to be wrong. If anything in retrospect it makes you wonder why they were so eager to sign a combo guard in Harden whose can and is fulfilling what Jeremy was supposed to be doing, leading the offense.

    3. I don't think Jeremy would be traded, unless the fans are fed up with him.

      However, I did see how TDouglas flourished under Houston's offensive scheme. The offense the Rockets are playing is just the opposite of D'Antoni's PG-oriented game; all a PG has to do there is to bring the ball across the court. In this sense, TD's INability to make a play is minimized, while Jeremy's tremendous basketball IQ is under-utilized.

      Career wise, I think it's a very good training process for Jeremy. As for the rockets, not maximizing Jeremy's play making talent is a total waste.

    4. Nah no biggie. At least for many Jlin fans. We'll support him and his team wherever he goes.

      Why worry with things beyond your control?

    5. @Hans agreed. McHale's offense doesn't need an amazing play making point guard. the offense doesn't start until they've either moved the ball around the wing or shuffled it at which point the main play maker isn't even the point guard. they only have 1 or 2 high screen pick-n roll plays and its used sparingly. its not that Toney Douglas is better than Jeremy because he isn't, but for the purposes of McHale's offense any PG who can handle the ball and occasionally get a shot off is good enough.

      maybe yall are too young to remember how the celtics played with McHale, Bird and Parish. McHale wants to play inside out just like they did in the late 80s. does anyone really remember the PG on the 80s celtics? not really, because it was about the big 3 and everyone else was a role player.

      same with Phil Jackson's teams. who was the PG? who cares. their offenses don't rely on PGs. in Phil's case he preferred veterans be it Derek Fisher who is by all means sub par for a PG, but it works in that system.

      the longer Jeremy is marginalized in this type of offense the less he's needed and can be traded.

    6. Lol why should you worry about something not happened yet? If Lin was traded, he was traded. There are many players who get traded every year in this league. I would praise the team who traded for Lin and pity the one who traded him away. When we cross that bridge, we can talk then. Not now when it's not happening, yet if ever.

      One thing though, I can't understand how any sensible Lin fans would root for Lin to be traded. Do you guys know guys who got traded every year are called "journeymen" for a reason? Changing your working environment often hurt one's career greatly.

    7. i'm a Jeremy fan no doubt and have come to realize this system is not made for him. he will be diminished in this offensive scheme.

      he needs a PG centric offense. D'Antoni's isn't the only one out there but obviously that's been the proven track record for Jeremy.

      i think any trade to get him on a team that will truly give him the keys to the offense is best for him.

    8. Players don't always get traded to wherever they want unless your name is Melo lol. Don't be so naive. Also, unless you bought a nba team and then traded for Lin, no team would cater to Lin like he's Steve Nash or Lebron James. In case you might not even know, not every team in the nba runs a PG centric offense either. Many teams run the offense through their best player though which Lin is not yet in any team. So stop dreaming. Lin needs and will adapt. If he is good, he will perform in any team and in any system.

    9. cara, i can mention plenty of point guards, some of the elite even, when moved to a system that didn't run the offense through them they performed terribly.

      Gary Payton is an excellent example of what a non-PG centric system can do to an elite PG. he was never able to do what he did best because the triangle doesnt utilize dribble penetration which is his specialty.

      and many teams do not run their offense through their best player. they run their offense through their best play maker. in McHale's offense a good number of players particularly the high post becomes a key play maker. as opposed to MDA's style where the PG is the main playmaker.

      i doubt Jeremy will play well in McHales system but he will be limited by the system itself.

    10. If McHale's system was such a PG killing system you made it out to be, why were both Kyle Lowry and Goran Dragic having career years under McHale?

    11. Also, re your example about Gary Payton, when your team had Shaq and Kobe, you wanted your teamD's system to cater to Payton?

      The Rockets choose to run the offense through Harden. Time will tell if it's wise or not. Lin has to learn to adapt, not asking for special treatment and entitlement when you have done nothing of note on this team like a Royce White.

    12. Hello pz:

      Just so you know, RantSports and Bleacher Report are fan sites. For the most part, the people who write for them are not professional reporters, and the few ones that do are either marginal freelance types or guys that Rant Sports and Bleacher Report pay to run their syndicated columns. So this Jeff Shull has no inside information - or even publicly known information - with the Rockets coaches, players and front office. He is just a fan spouting an opinion. And it is a bad one at that.

      "It is due to this that the Rockets should now view Lin as expendable. Tony Douglas is more than capable of stepping in and playing back seat to Harden as the ball-handler, and he’s a better defender than Lin." Even if it is true - and it is not - who is the backup PG? It isn't true by the way. Do you know this? Do you know that Toney Douglas is horrible? Were the Rockets to trade Lin, they would not have a PG. Toney Douglas is not a PG, but a SG who fooled NBA scouts into thinking that he is a SG. He played SG in high school and for most of his college career. If he was 6-3 instead of 6-1, he'd be a backup SG somewhere. James Harden is not a PG either. He is a SG with some PG skills. Were the Rockets to let Lin walk, it would be a total disaster.

      "Lin is averaging a meager 11.4 points and 6.4 assists while shooting just 36.5 percent from the field and 33 percent from three."

      Huh? 11.4 points and 6.4 assists are AVERAGE for an NBA starting PG. Let me repeat ... for all the woe, gloom and doom, Lin is no worse than an AVERAGE NBA POINT GUARD right now. This is while playing INJURED on a BAD TEAM while having to learn a new system with a new coach. Look at Tony Parker and Jeff Teague: 13.5 ppg and 7.8 apg on better teams, guys with big men who can score when they pass it to them and draw a defense away from them to open up the perimeter like Duncan and Horford.

      This is just a guy who is upset that the Rockets let Lowry and Dragic walk. This is this guy's profile. http://bleacherreport.com/users/73923-jeff-shull He IS NOT a member of the media. At most, he is trying to break into sports journalism by writing for Rant Sports and Bleacher Report. And by writing a totally inaccurate fan piece like this, it looks like this guy needs to aspire to another line of work.

    13. @ pz

      BASELESS trade rumors and speculations will probably proliferate as people trip over themselves to "call" it, after the Miami game. It's just talk. :)

    14. @pz:

      Correcting more of your disinformation.

      "does anyone really remember the PG on the 80s celtics? not really, because it was about the big 3 and everyone else was a role player."

      Wrong. Totally wrong. The Celtics had very good guards. They just favored their big men because the big men were better. Also, Robert Parish, the Celtics C, had to diminish his offensive game to let the forwards score too.

      "same with Phil Jackson's teams. who was the PG? who cares. their offenses don't rely on PGs. in Phil's case he preferred veterans be it Derek Fisher who is by all means sub par for a PG, but it works in that system."

      Still wrong. Jackson just never had very good PGs. It was a personnel issue, not a system issue. Jackson would have LOVED to have an All-Star PG. But since he didn't, he was smart enough to let his Hall of Fame SGs and SFs run things than force stuff with John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong and Derek Fisher. Incidentally, do you know that the Lakers tried to turn Kobe Bryant into a PG early in Bryant's career? It didn't work (because Bryant didn't want to play PG). If Jackson had a PG as good as Lin, he would have utilized the PG a lot more. Or if he didn't have SG and SFs as good as Jordan and Pippen, he would have utilized Paxson and BJ Armstrong - who were good just not great - more.

      Jackson, KC Jones etc. played to their strengths with those Bulls, Lakers and Celtics teams. And any good well coached team that Lin goes to will play to their strengths.

    15. Unknown, you know nothing of the triangle if you think Phil wanted good PGs. He wanted veterans who could handle the ball, bring it up court, and shoot from the perimeter like D Fish did many times. That's it. When Phil came the Lakers he specificaly request old man Ron Harper even though this guy could barely run anymore.

      i wonder if you guys even saw Payton play on Seattle or if i'm talking to kids who have to wiki every player they dont know.

      And if you don't beleive me eat this:

      Gary Payton on the triangle:

    16. Cara ... did Lowry and Dragic really have career years under McHale?

      Lowry definitely had some great games with amazing stats, but the beef between him and McHale (if you knew that) was because McHale thought he was doing too much and Lowry wanted more freedom.

      Dragic had a good year only because Lowry had an "infection" and finally got more playing time to shine. His year was a success simply because he could come in and almost get them to the playoffs.

      stats wise they all performed around 14 and 7. Jeremy under MDA before Melo came back from injury was putting up 20 and 8. of course it came down after Melo and Amare came back and stunk it up and then Jeremy started to play injured.

    17. Get your fact straight before you speak. Both Lowry and Dragic had their best year as a pro under McHale. Both averaged around 18/8 as a starter. I bet you did not even watch one Rockets game last year.

      If you believe Lin is a good player and better than the two PGs mentioned, why would he not be able to perform under McHale?

      Just give it a rest. It's only 7 games. I think you must also forget what numbers Lin had in his 1st 7 gamed under Mike D'Antoni, right? Something like 2 ppg, 1 apg was more correct.

    18. With Lowry and Dragic they were allowed to play their positions! PG! There was no Harden or "superstar" on the team last year stealing their job.

      Jeremy got to run the point in preseason and the first 2 games but since then McHale has installed a new Harden-centric offense.

      Under THAT scheme I don't think Jeremy will be able to thrive. Just look how his numbers and shot attempts and usage rate continue to plummet game by game.

    19. Exactly. The system has totally changed from last year. I do not know why, but Rockys coaches seem to be determined not to use any PG-centric offense scheme any more this year (at least so far).

  2. Sure it's possible. There are very few good reasons within the realm of likelihood for the Rockets to trade Lin, but that doesn't preclude it from happening. More puzzling (unreasonable) trades have happened before..

    1. It isn't possible. The reason is that were the Rockets to trade Lin, they would have no point guard. James Harden is not a PG, and Toney Douglas - in addition to being simply a bad NBA player - is not a PG either. Unless they get a PG back in the trade, trading Lin would be a disaster. And why trade a PG for a PG? What would that accomplish for the Rockets especially when the player that they get back would be a more expensive, less capable player? The Rockets know that in Lin they have a player who when healthy can be their scorer and creator if Harden goes down, and who when healthy and when he learns their current offense can be a great 1-2 punch with Harden (when Harden learns it too by the way). Just because the Rockets have played this way for 7 games doesn't mean that they are going to play this way the entire season.

  3. i believe this is one of the whopping 2 plays in total where jeremy can make the play from the moment he brings it up, much like he did in NY under MDA.


    1. other than that Jeremy will be delegated to hand off to Harden like this most of the time.


    2. Why can't you just be a bit patient instead of complaining every single time? In case you haven't noticed, Harden's shooting % has already dropped off big time. He needs Lin to set him up easy shots more than anybody. Harden or the coaching staff are not deliberately freezing out Lin unless they want to lose every single game and lose their job. Sooner or later, they will figure it out.

      I really want to know how old the posters are and if you guys go to work yet. Do you guys always quit your job after a few days if your employer didn't cater to you?

    3. look i'm just saying the system isn't catered to what Jeremy's strengths are, simple.

      tech jobs afford flexible jobs :-) and if you want to know how old i am i've seen McHale play live in 88. just a clue.

    4. Too bad Jeremy Lin was not working for a tech job. He is working for a job (starting PG in the nba) that there are only 30 posts in the whole world. He didn't really have much of a choice who his employer is, compared to a tech job. He chose the one who is willing to pay him 8 millions annually while the other 29 aren't willing. He's good, you know. If you watched nba since 1988, you should understand the harsh reality of this league better than the "every team should cater to Jeremy Lin's strength". Also, if you are really a Lin fan, you should have more faith than Lin. Great players change the systems, not the other way around.

    5. @Cara:

      Again, simply marvelous.

    6. @Cara .... MDA catered to Jeremy's strengths and let a kid coming from the D-League run the Knicks offense. Had he not entrusted Jeremy none of us would be posting here because Linsanity would never have happened.

    7. Pz, sorry you sounded like a bandwagoner to me. What meant by "none of us would be posting here" without Linsanity? Do you even know this site existed way before Linsanity?

      Also, MDA did not really cater to Lin. The thing MDA gave Lin was confidence. Put the current Lin into last year's Knicks, Linsanity would likely not have happened.

      And Lin's not yet recognized enough to ask every team, every management and coach to cater to him. He's not an entitled spoiled kid like you sounded to be, no offense.

    8. MDA didn't let Jeremy run the offense? really? the confidence came from the fact that Jeremy was allowed to run the offense. rethink your argument through buddy

    9. MDA gave Lin DNP or rubbish time in his 1st 7 games. McHale gave Lin 35 mpg. Who caters to Lin more?

    10. that's why Jeremy said this about MDA:

      "He changed my career. He changed my life. I’m always thankful to him for that. I wish him the best of luck in LA."

    11. PZ, you just argued for the sake of arguing. Who cares about MDA anyway? Or are you suggesting Lin should make a trade request to trade to the Lakers now so that MDA could give Lin his DNPs?

    12. did you watch basketball last year?

      all i've been saying is don't put it past MDA to want to acquire Jeremy, the only other player I've heard MDA said resembled Nash and could run the offense MDA runs.

    13. So what? So Lin should only play for one coach only, this is what you suggested? If he did not get what he wanted, he should retire? You wanted Lin to always live in the past, not the present?

    14. Lol you are reaching. What did you discuss something has not happened yet? What didn't you want Lin to excel in his CURRENT team instead of another coach and another team?

    15. MDA is looking right now Steve Blake, Darrius Morris, or Duhon to run his offense. they are not the PG types to run his offense and you can be guaranteed over the next 3 years of MDA's contract he needs to bring in a PG that can run it. remember shumpert starting at PG trying to run MDA's offense? its the same situation he's in all over again. 37 year old nash will last only so long and 7 seconds or less needs to be passed down to someone else MDA can be tied to. who do YOU think MDA wants to coach?

    16. btw, it was McHale and Morey who cut Jeremy to begin with. until commercial appeal came did they suddenly turn around to get Jeremy. McHale has never really had high praise for Jeremy, nothing near what MDA has praised him. its surprising that you wouldn't want Jeremy to be under a coach that inspires him and has full confidence in him.


      And stop trying to put words in people's mouths. You've gone after everyone here.

      Just enjoy Lin and his game. He's not coming to your Lakers anytime soon. Enjoy your Lakers while you're at it.

      Stop flaming people.

    18. apologies if you guys take this personally. just talking basketball as we all should be allowed to here. heated debates about bball should be what this forum is for.

      btw im not a lakers fan. i am a believer that MDA + Lin is the best thing for them both, that's all. i don't know why you guys don't see that or fail to get it.

    19. Because like Lin, we are mature adults who can see the big picture. Not 10 year olds who never go to work one day like you with your childish and meaningless suggestion. Also, we like Lin because he's a great player and we believe he can play in any system. Also we like his never say die attitude, not a quitter as you suggested or you yourself appear to be. You are that one who fail to get it.

      KHuang, I am flaming him/her, not the other way around!

  4. ok, since many JLin fans (i.e. advisor)seem to think that Jeremy is just an average defender, I did a short analysis with video capture to show that JLin's excellent man-to-man defense and help defense against 3 Heat players (Wade, Cole, Bosh) actually provided a spark to make 8-3 run in the 3rd quarter. This was part of a 16-7 run to tie the game at 75-75 towards the end of 3rd quarter.

    Hopefully this helps many fans to appreciate Jeremy's excellent defense the next time we watch his games. It took me some time to put this together so enjoy :D

    We will look in detail in this 8-3 run, especially in how Lin successfully guarded Wade, Bosh, Cole resulting in 1 block, 2 missed layups, 1 steal, 1 charge. This is not the work of an average defender.

    1. Thanks for providing documentary proof of JLin's defensive impact. I noticed these types of plays during this and other games as well and have described what I've seen in previous posts, so I am so glad you took the time and effort to break it down with visuals and specific references to back up the claim. Great stuff!

    2. I still remember the narratives on Lin last year were

      1. He was a bad defender
      2. He was turnover prone (remember the prediction that Lin would lead the league in turnovers?)
      3. He couldn't make a bounce pass
      4. He only beat bad teams but not good teams

      Funny how Harden of this year has all Lin problems yet you rarely heard them in the media or among the team fans.

      Also, happy to see Lin seems to correct his "weaknesses" of last year, but you rarely heard it either. All we get is his bad shooting, even on this supposed Lin fan site.

      Props to Psalm for your work!

    3. @ Psalm

      Appreciate this much! :)

    4. thanks wilc/cara/psalm.

      I got tired of people not seeing what some of us are able to see how well Jeremy plays not only help defense but also his man-to-man defense.

      It's true that sometimes he still gets beat by backdoor screen of the opposing PG but the positives outweighs the risk as seen in this 8-3 run. He will learn by experience to not overhelp with team defense against some smart/quick players.

      I also learned something new about his man-to-man defense. He always managed to body up DWade and raise his hand up to disrupt the shooting rhythm of DWade but pull away in the last second so he won't get the blocking call. I think this is an improvement from last year. Harden actually did the opposite of not raising his hand and getting too close to DWade that he got the foul call.

      JLin certainly leverages his speed to either cover his man and provide help defense. This is something that a slower player cannot do.

    5. @Psalm234

      While I don't agree 100% with your blog post (but I agree with most of it!), I have to say that I always appreciate a well thought out argument, which this was. This looks like it took a lot of time, and I really enjoyed reading it.

    6. His so-called bad defense is a creation of the media. Perception becomes reality even when it's untrue. I think it all started when he was supposedly lit up by Rondo/Deron Williams/Tony Parker - all guys who were playing as if it was the frigging NBA finals to prove they are the best.

    7. thanks Nom. I'm interested in which area you have different opinion. Is it on the defense or offense portion?

      Note: correction "thanks wilc/cara/via" in the post above

  5. For the people who think that the Rockets should trade Lin, please tell me how this trade helps the Rockets. The two most difficult positions to fill in the NBA are PG and C. Also, the most important position in the NBA is PG unless you have multiple guys that are so good offensively and defensively that you don't need one.

    So, were the Rockets to trade Jeremy Lin for a SF or PF (forget about trading him for one of the few good starting Cs in the league) they would have no chance at winning. They would have no one capable of playing the PG position. James Harden is not a PG, he is a SG. Toney Douglas is not a PG, nor is he an NBA caliber player. Sure, Harden is dominating the ball right now, but they still need someone to play the PG role at least half the time. A SF or PF that they get in a trade would be incapable of doing that.

    So trade Lin for a PG? Sure, if you can tell me why. How would trading Lin for another player who plays the same position help the Rockets? Lin isn't reaching his full potential with the Rockets because of their offense and Harden? That isn't the Rockets' problem. The Rockets' problem is getting the best players that they can for whatever system they run. And for the system that they run now, they wouldn't be able to get equal value for Lin. Meaning that they wouldn't be able to get a player as good as Lin for the money that they are paying Lin. If you think that the Rockets are going to get a 6'3", 24 year old proven starter at PG who can run an offense and score for $25 million, you're nuts. Trading Lin for another PG would mean getting a guy who is either washed up or doesn't have PG skills in return.

    Bottom line: Lin ain't going anywhere because trading him doesn't benefit the Rockets. The idea that because they have Harden that they no longer need Lin is ridiculous. Having Harden doesn't change the fact that the Rockets are still going to need a starting caliber NBA PG. The Rockets aren't interested in some backup swingman or whatever else they can get in return for Lin in a trade. They would much rather have Lin and win as many games as possible with him, and the fact that they traded away their two 1st round picks makes it even more so ... dumping Lin to try to improve their position in the draft lottery won't work either because the Thunder have those picks. And the Rockets aren't going to exchange Lin for a backup or for picks because they want to chase another max contract player (plus other mid-range salary players) but no one is going to come to the Rockets if their roster is James Harden and a bunch of backups. More to the point, even if they did attract someone else, THEY WOULD STILL NEED A POINT GUARD. So what are the Rockets going to do ... dump Jeremy Lin so they can chase Chris Paul? Yeah ... and that makes them better how? That would put them in the same situation that they are in now, with 2 great backcourt players but no frontcourt players. It would be better to keep Lin, a bargain at his $25 million salary despite what Rockets fans think, and go after max contract PF, plus use the midlevel (or less) type contracts that they are paying Lin to get a backup guard and a backup forward for depth.

    If you keep Lin, then getting 1 all star PF with a good pick and roll game and a couple more solid reserves would make the Rockets as good as any team beyond the title contenders like the Spurs, Lakers, Thunder and Heat. But if you ditch Lin, you could get an all star PG and be no better off than you are now because you will still need to get a star frontcourt player. Plus good luck getting a star PG here to replace Lin in the first place if the whole team is Harden and nobody else.

    The Rockets are a business. Their product is winning games. And trading Jeremy Lin would be bad for business because it would make it much harder for them to win games.

    1. Wow, Unknown, don't know that you have such a smart post in you! ;-p

      Couldn't put it better myself. Props!

    2. Excellent insights! Props to unknown, cara and psalms.

  6. Here comes down to it. Do Jeremy Lin really want to score? If so, take the god damn shot or attack? In my opinion, McHale wants Jeremy to play team ball and get his teammates involved. I doubt McHale tells Jeremy to take 10 shot attempts or less per game. As an athlete, a coach can only show you the system. During game time, you must play team ball and follow your instinct. If your instinct tells you to drive or take the open shot, you do it. If Jeremy takes 15 shot attempts per game and win the game, do you think Mchale will care? Hell no.... From what I see, Jeremy loss confidence and does not trust his stroke. That is why he is not playing good offense and take less attempts. Do you think Hardin cares if Jeremy takes 15 shot attempts. No, because Hardin knows Jeremy is the second option on offense. Hardin is taking over 15 shot attempts per game and miss most, do you see his team whining? Do you think Asik or Parson cares if Jeremy takes more shot attempts? No, why because Jeremy is Jeremy Lin! Take the god damn shot Jeremy! You will never over come cold streak until you take the shots and become hot! End of story.