Friday, September 21, 2012

Q n A with JL

http://www.nba.com/rockets/news/qa-jeremy-lin

216 comments:

  1. Jeremy : There are several directions must be noted.
    1)Successful interpersonal relationships.
    2)Harmonious team atmosphere.
    3) Understand the each teammates personality.
    4)A positive outlook on life, (the owner of the Houston Rockets, of course, include you)
    You can do a 100% leader and won the NBA championship.

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  2. Maybe it's still honeymoon time. But is it just me or is the quality of Houston media much better than that of NY? At least they focused more on the basketball matters and wouldn't just want to create "taken out of the context" headlines.

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    1. New York media is New York media. They dont call New York "Gotham City" for no reason :) Even if Houston media start to come up with lowbrow headline news it will still be better than New York. As JLin fans we expect great things to happen but my guess is - as long as JLin is mediocre or better than mediocre - he will be fine. Just my 2 cents...

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  3. For this interview, the quality of the questions were quite high. It touches upon almost all the topics we have discussed here.

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  4. This interview is fairly substantive and actually focuses on ... basketball of all things. What a shocker!

    If only the rest of the mainstream American media could be this way.

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    1. The whole interview is quite good and reassuring.

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    2. On the other hand, I always felt uneasy about Jeremy Lin's "open book" attitude. Other players can use Lin's self-revealed current information to play against him, but they are not revealing any new specifics that can be used by him.

      I also think that Lin should sometimes (depends) talk in generalities when talking about what his coach, teammates, or opponents who are friendly off-court told him; don't say anything that gives the wrong impression that an opponent could be helping him on the court (poor Jason Kidd comes to mind), and generally don't give out any team strategies. I remember in one interview where Novak told Lin to "Shhhh....", but Lin said "That's okay, scout is already out" (or something like that). I don't think Lin should always assume that opponent coaches/players know everything; even if they do, why remind them; there are a lot to remember and not everybody has photographic memory.

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    3. @ ztrta

      He tends to lapse into technical talk. You know, unpack things, go into details.

      That 85% is obviously one of them, where he's talking from an injury context [85% from operational] while the fans were thinking from a performance context [85% from optimum.] I mean, wouldn't you talk in that shorthand way with your coaches/ trainers/ therapist, who are all immersed in your daily physical improvement?

      His postgame talks are all like this. It seems he's most comfortable this way, breaking things down, it's the way a trainer/ trainee will talk.

      Some people were saying he was being a phony about picking up trash bec a humble guy wouldn't point out how he's being humble. But again, in the interview, he was breaking things down, getting technical. Here are the ways he tried to fight Linsanity going to his head, then proceeds to enumerate concrete examples.

      It's a habit. Possibly from being around trainers/ coaches/ teachers a lot.

      It's either that, or the type of talk he gives at formal interviews, vaguey & super gracious.
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      Some people expect...wit [?] or whatever from him bec he's from Harvard.

      Does it matter if Jeremy Lin is boring?
      http://hoopspeak.com/2012/02/does-it-matter-if-jeremy-lin-is-boring/

      He's careful of the social implications of what he says, & so, lapses into technical talk.

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    4. What I meant with the 85% was, he didn't have to give a number, but he tend to get technical.

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    5. via wong,

      Yeah, you're right; that's exactly the way he talks - even to the media - but there s/b a differentiation. But I think, as he's more experienced in PR, Lin will modify the way he handles questions. Everything comes down to experience and learning curve, but newly famous people should also ask/listen to their publicist/agent; nothing is contrived about it, as it is considered a necessity.

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    6. Lin is a BASKETBALL PLAYER, not a social analyst.

      He talks completely openly about basketball, far more than other players do. That's good enough for me.

      If you want social commentary, read MY posts. Just let Lin be Lin - a fine basketball player who really knows and plays the NBA game!

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    7. It's a lot more than about social commentary in Lin's case, because he's in a pro team sport. It's about not letting opponents know too much specifics about him or his team that opponents can take advantage of on the court, while not having a similar insider info about other teams.

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    8. Lin hasn't said anything that scouting reports don't already know.

      NBA teams know everything about their opponents. That doesn't necessarily translate to victories.

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    9. @ztrta
      I always felt uneasy about Jeremy Lin's "open book" attitude. Other players can use Lin's self-revealed current information to play against him, but they are not revealing any new specifics that can be used by him.
      -this has been my issue w/ rafael nadal before ^^ but eventually he learned to position his statements that is not too revealing anymore...but basing from jlin's other interviews he tends to give safe answers but there are times that he slips ^^v and give away too many (unnecessary) information...

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    10. He fills the time [of the interview] with bball talk, bec talking about other things can be a potential social minefield. He's aware he's SEEN as representing all these groups & anything coming out of his mouth can be spun into controversy. So, he talks bball, the way he knows how [the way he would talk with his coaches.] You can only say 'unbelievable' so much. :) You have to fill the time.

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    11. How the heck could other players use Jeremy Lin's basketball statements against him?

      This is the NBA where players know each others' tendencies and usually can't do anything about it.

      Guys in the NBA know the game so well that they don't need to scour each other's interviews for gameplans.

      If teams need extra motivation to play their hardest in the NBA, those teams are either so good that they aren't going to get anything out of reading Lin's innocuous comments or so bad that they can't do anything about Lin anyway!

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  5. Reading this is there any doubt Jeremy Lin would win multiple championships as a GM? You could tell last yr he knew exactly the skill sets of his teammates and how to use them best.
    Reading this he really understands the game and talent, even little nuances

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  6. I don't know how many of you guys read my previous article about Lin, but I wrote a new article that compares Lin with other players under the age of 25 that averaged similar stats to Lin over 26 or more games. I'd love to hear what you guys think.

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    1. @Aids Bike,

      If I understand correctly, you did analysis to find which players had similar PER36 average stats in PTS, AST, STL within 10% to Jeremy Lin and in which season they accomplished the feat first?
      RESULTS: they averaged 19.0 points, 7.9 assists, 2.0 steals and 3.5 turnovers.

      Then you did the second search to see how well they did after 3 seasons
      RESULTS: they averaged 18.3 points, 8.3 assists and 1.9 steals over their respective 3 seasons

      Since the average after 3 seasons look similar, does it mean Jeremy Lin will at least maintain the average? It would be nice to point out how many got better by how much (i.e. Baron's AST went up from 7.4 to 8.3) to show the ceiling for Jeremy?

      Overall, it is definitely interesting data to analyze but several suggestions:
      - it was not quite clear what each table represents so perhaps if you state the questions in bold, it would be easier to follow how the data either supports or does not support.
      - too much data in the table, if you want to focus on PTS, AST, STL you need to make it easier to see. I couldn't see the PTS in the first table but maybe it's my browser.
      - it would be interesting to conclude what is the ceiling and drop-off from these players in 3 years, and which one Jeremy might follow
      - most importantly, make it easier for the readers to understand the hypothesis and the conclusion.

      Just my 2cents. It's very interesting data make projections, though. Good analysis to begin with. My biggest question is did any of the players turn out to be a 'fluke' and not grow as much in 3 seasons?

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    2. sorry, got too long. Just feedback for @Aids Bike. Everyone else can skip :)

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    3. Hey @Psalm234, thanks for your constructive criticism. I made some changes to the tables, so nothing should be cut off anymore. I also added some more commentary.

      To answer your questions, it's hard to make predictions based solely on the performances of other players, which is why I hesitate to do so. But what we can say is that in the past 27 years, there has never been any player who, before the age of 25, put up similar numbers to Lin for as long as he did, and then just have their production drop off significantly in subsequent seasons.

      Of the players that were in the article, the only drop-off was from Anfernee Hardaway, who struggled with injuries (and yet still managed to get voted in as a starter in the 97-98 season despite only playing 19 games).

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  7. It's interesting JLin himself says exactly the same thing on his weak point:

    "Definitely I find myself in the air too much. I need to stay on the ground and not get caught in bad situations. I have to cut down on lazy passes. Coach McHale calls them “same plane” passes where it’s one spot and I just fire in a direct line; I have to use more deception and different angles. Then I just have to solidify my left hand and dribbling and keeping guys from reaching in. Those things accounted for most of my turnovers last year."

    He needs to watch Rondo pass; Rondo is great at using deception and different angles, so that even when Rondo makes a simple pass, it freezes opponents and sets up other players for good shots. Anyway, I am impressed that JLin has a good grasp on what he has to do; whether he can do it is another question. I think after 30 or 40 games into the season, we will have a better idea on what the ceiling is to JLin's game.

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    2. Good point. But Lin is aware of Rondo; he just didn't name all top PGs. Lin has said in a previous interview that Rondo is an elite point guard. At the age of 26, this is already Rondo's 7th season in the NBA, and I believe he has peaked already; and probably will continue to perform at the peak level for 3 more years.

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  8. Another thing. I watched some highlights of Raymond Felton, and he's pretty decent player. It would not surprise me at all if he does a decent job as a PG for Knicks.

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  9. http://houston.sbnation.com/2012/9/21/3367390/mailbag-response-to-your-jeremy-lin-comments

    I hope JLin can show the above writer that he can play at a high level of an entire season, because I do agree that playing consistently at a high level for an entire season is what differentiates stars from average NBA players. I hope JLin doesn't get injured so that people can get an accurate picture of his level during a complete season.

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    1. Kyrie Irving is rated by espn as the 22nd best player in the league and preceived by many as a franchise player. Yet no one complains about his less than great numbers in a losing team while having the benefit of having the playing time and the ball majority of time, in a small sample size to boot. Not to mention being outplayed by Lin. Lol. Double standard at its best. Not surprising though, black bias and racism against Asian are always strong among nba circle and fans.

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    2. Well, like I said many times, I hope JLin gets through the upcoming season without injury, so there will be no arguments related to JLin's having not maintained the high level throughout the entire season.

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    3. Hey Cara, I hope you understand that it might be very easy to discredit someone especially on a losing team however there is a reason why he is ranked this high. He has a arsenal of offensive weapons and he is quite clutch too. Anyhow, I hope everyone understands that if anything, ESPN has been quite fair with Lin. Another example is Mario Chalmers . It is easy to see that he is real good because he is on a winning team but everyone knows that Lebron almost plays like a point guard . I think Chalmers is a good defender for a pg but I would like to see more from him.

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    4. I hope you understand Lin's better or at least equal to Irving. No, espn is not being fair, nor are you!

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    5. If Lin played like Kyrie Irving and Irving played like Lin, Kyrie Irving would be hailed as the next all time great while Lin would be called a SCRUB!

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    6. Hey Cara, If lin produced those same numbers like he did in nyk for the next season, I think he would be ranked really high. I Really hope so ha ha. Why do you say that ESPN is unfair? I do know that SAS is biased but who else? IS it because of kyrie?

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    7. Why is espn unfair? It's because Lin and even John Wall are better players and prospects than Irving and yet they are ranked about 50 and 30 spots lower respectively.

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  10. I hope Lin gets three hall of farmers to help him do reads, positioning, and angles......



    I think haters are going to seize on his comment about Raymond Felton et all and twist his words....

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    2. well, I guess haters will seize on anything to spew their hate.
      Just take the positive. Like @Khuang said, free publicity :D

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    3. We will simply have to do what we always tell haters to do -> read what we like and ignore what we dont like. Haters will hate - theres no stoping them. Remember that smurf that hates everything? Whats his name again?

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    4. Wong, dont give the media ideas , better remove that "limited" comment. I am serious.

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    5. Lin can learn the game like a sponge, but only if he has good coaches and players to learn from. Let's hope the Rockets management can find some good veteran players, coaching staff, and trainers who can teach him the best way to play.

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    7. @ mint

      :) Took it down.

      Those guys are, however, pros. Don't need no prompting to find their angle.

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    8. Faugh!

      You guys are a bunch of WIMPS.

      Altering your behavior because you're afraid of racist taunts? GET SOME BALLS and stand firm!

      You think a warrior like KHuang is gonna let some racist cow him into weak kneed literary submission? FUGGEDABOUTIT. I cow racists into submission, not the other way around!!!

      Grow up, boyos. Stop cowering because of what the racists might do. Let them do, and then DO THEM!!!!

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    9. @ KHuang

      I wouldn't want to give them [media] ideas, if there's even .000001% it could harm JLin, no. :)

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    10. @ KHuang

      Otherwise, agree with your post 10000%

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    11. Hey Wong, I am unsure if KHuang is referring to you or me about removing the comment. As what you said , I dont want to give them ideas although it is not a preventive measure, I would not want to part of it .

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    12. Still, he's [KHuang] right. :)

      People count on Asians being avoidant/ overly-peaceable. It only invites more bullying.

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    13. I am an Asian American fighter who has no fear of anyone just because of his skin color.

      If the media wants to come here and take my statements to bash Asians, FINE. I'll bash 'em right back, just like I have plenty of times.

      I'm not like you guys, kowtowing in abject fear to a big bad media that is going to use my life as ammunition to criticize Asians more than they already have.

      Like I said, I'M the one that inspires fear in the media, not the other way around!

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  11. On Jeremy Lin & Singular Models

    http://therumpus.net/2012/09/different-racisms-ii-on-jeremy-lin-and-singular-models/

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  12. If you guys haven't seen it, here's an awesome Lin mix starting from high school all the way to the NBA:

    The Journey of Jeremy Lin

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTHBdjP8Kj4

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  13. No pressure in crunch time, well motivated, humble, focus on improving.... Wish you a great season jeremy, we all will still pray for you.

    Reaching the playoffs would be amazing ... I really hope that

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  14. SUPERB interview. I love hearing Jeremy talk shop. Bravo, Jason Friedman for asking REAL basketball questions.

    The fact that Jeremy would admit to studying Chris Duhon and Ray Felton speaks to his humility, intelligence and insane commitment to improvement. That is, he's even willing to learn from inferior guards as they still have one or two things to teach him.

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  15. JLin sends jersey to Naim as promised

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1OwNNJJqvg

    HM ‏@TheMindOfHM
    Hey @JLin7 we just got the jersey! Thank you again! Can't wait for Naim to come home from school to open the package! #Rockets #Knicks
    11:37 AM - 21 Sep 12

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  21. @mint:

    There is a little problem with your point of view... Lin hasnt done it for just 25 games. Lin has somehow been great his entire career. Now - is he going to be an elite PG? Who knows. Does he have the body to play a whole season without injury? We will see. Did he stick it to certain players who have been drafted? Hello? Did he deserve to be drafted or given a scholarship? Hell yeah. Is he asian? Seems to be. Have people scorned, bashed and underestimated him because of his race? Obviously. Did he rock New York and the whole wide world or what? You better say YES!

    Now - these are little details that make his story somewhat special. Dont take that away from him. Would things have gone that crazy if it were someone not asian? HOW COULD YOU EVEN TELL?

    About your "someone else is reading here and posting stuff..." Do you really believe that we are discussing things that is secret knowledge that noone else has? If Knicks fans are so loyal and unified - why did they booo Melo before Linsanity? Why did they booo Jeffries all the time? Why did they booo Lin before Linsanity? Its New York man. Someone has something going - they praise him. That someone has trouble? They drop him. Its Gotham City man. Didnt you see all the recent Batman movies? To me - Lin is Batman. Please mint - dont read too much into whatever people write elsewhere. There might be a few individuals with mental illness who wont stop bashing JLin and his fans cause these individuals neither have a life or a job or a girlfried - the majority of all bball fans dont even read these forums. Name a player and I will tell you where you can read great things and where you can read trash talk about that player. Dont be alarmed just because some people hat JLin. Pity is for free. Envy must be earned and boy did JLin earned it...

    This is where JLin fans chill out. To tell us to stop this and that is basicly killing the fanbase. Dont be paranoid. Take a chill pill :)

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  22. Now - you say that Melo would have made it for the Knicks if it wasnt for JLin interfering? Have you seen how Knicks did without JLin? Dude - if Knicks were successful without JLin there wouldnt have been Linsanity in the first place. Melo is awesome but he has his ups and downs. Fans were doubting Melo before Linsanity - again - that lead to Linsanity. His coach was doubting him, too. Its not like Melo joined the Knicks two weeks before Linsanity.

    About stereotypes - what are stereotypes for? Its for people to feel good about themselves. Its for people to tease and bash others. Now - when a guy says that mexicans are lazy - who do you blame? You blame the mexicans or the idiot who makes such false claims?

    Because some self righteous idiots in some self righteous forums who think they are bball pros claim that the asian fanbase dont know nothing about bball JLin and his fans have to change? WTH??? Say they are new to bball - so what? You know what I think your opinion reinforces? That would reinforce the stereotype that asian are too respectful, timid, reserved and whatever. That again is the reason why asian have such a difficult standing. JLin has female fans. Thats why people write that JLin is cute. Again - why is that bad? Dont you see the reason for the critics? ENVY! Yes - again - its all to do with race and envy and hatred. JLin is JLin. Nothing we say here influences him, his character, his way to play bball. If your are asian - please try not to be a living stereotype. If youre not asian - dont try to walk in asian peoples shoes...

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    1. FYI, I am Asian.The reason why I didnt reveal it in my post was because it would seem as though I wanted to show that I was impartial. I have studied overseas in the UK. I have been in Jlin's shoes before. I have been spat on, ridiculed and bullied. That is why I have immense respect for Lin.
      I did not say that "melo would have made it for the knicks if it wasnt for Jlin" May I know where did you get that from?
      As for stereotypes, it is one thing to stick up for yourself(race) and it is another thing to bash others. Get what I mean? People think they are"strong" just because they start cursing and stuff like that but Lin has given new meaning to what is toughness. Ignoring what people say and refusing to let what others dictate what you can or cannot do.I have met haters on-line and I have talked to them calmly and they lated admitted that they were misguided by the hype surrounding Lin and they even apologised. What I am trying to say is that instead of scolding them back we can talk to them nicely .Some work , some doesnt. Asians have a difficult standing largely because of how the media portrays us. It took Rondo a trip to the Philippines to realise how big basketball is over there. My post is to let people know about the possible reasons for the "hatred" . Do you know some of his fans say that other players are stupid and Lin went to Harvard. Can you not see that this is wrong ? We should also be responsible with what we say online. Scolding others does not make it right. Again , I am not saying that ALL Fans are like that.

      When I talk about things being discussed here, I know it is nothing secretive , but we must be careful with out words. Do you know the taiwanse media made fun of Felton being fat? Can you see how this might be wrong?

      I have sticked up for Lin on online forums, threads telling them that he is no fluke and that they cant take anything away from him after what he has done.
      The criticism that Lin(maybe more than warranted) has are also the same criticism that other players go though except we don't know if they are motivated by race or not.

      Lastly, I will say this again. My main objective is to let people understand why Lin is hated (warranted or not).I am not bashing his fans here but his fans( not from this site). I am just letting people know why certain people perceive certain things .

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    2. Y'know what I've found out?

      The best way to fight racism is to LAY A BEATDOWN.

      In Asia, it is rightfully considered disrespectful to flaunt your strength and be a bully. But in America, the biggest baddest brashest guy is considered the strongest guy even if he isn't.

      The formula is simple. If you want to be respected, STAND STRONG AND TALL (even if you're short for an Asian like me). When people are racist against you, take them head on. Just make sure you know how to handle yourself.

      My experience is that standing up for yourself, especially physically, is the only way to combat racism effectively. Lin is doing that, and he's doing just fine.

      Lin's only problem is that he hasn't mowed through the whole NBA yet. He WILL.

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    3. "When people are racist against you, take them head on. Just make sure you know how to handle yourself." Yes, that is what I am saying . Dignifying yourself without having to stoop to their level :)

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    4. @mint

      Relax.... This forum is fine. It's an excellent Jeremy's fan site. Unlike other forums, 99.9% of the people here are 99.99% of times fair, insightful, and factual - which is extremely rare on the internet. The NYTimes.com site is another classy site, but their posts must be approved before being published.

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    5. Ha ha I know this forum is fine! :) In fact, I am glad I found it. I just wanted to let people know why people hated Lin. At first I did not know why , but over the months , I have found out some reasons. If you all think it is unnecessary, I can just delete the post.

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    6. mint,

      I do think you should delete the posts (it's up to you though), because we all knew all that. I just think you that the haters reading your posts may feel that their hate is justified even more. Lin did absolutely nothing wrong to Carmelo; he just played his game the best he could because, firstly, he got paid to do so, and secondly, he loves the game.

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    7. @ mint

      There will always be hype.
      Media will always spin things.

      ???

      Just bec Nyk fans have reasons, it does not justify bad behavior.

      Just bec their reasons are understandable, does not mean they are right.

      They will continue to think the way they do, &..?

      Should we censor our posts so Nyk fans won't get offended?

      How should JLin fans behave, mint?
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      LOL at Felton being made fan of. That animation, right? He's made fun of in the KNICKS' FORUMS too.
      ???

      Are JLin fans responsible for this?

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    8. I am not justifying their actions at all. I am not prohibiting you all say what you want. It seems that everyone is aware of why Lin is hated. I am sorry if I seemed like this post was directed at you guys but it isnt at all. It seems to me that might have offended some of you. For that, I have deleted my posts.

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    9. @ Mint

      By the time I wrote a reply, you already deleted your response. Haha, wasted effort, but here goes anyways

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    10. Please don't delete the post. There are many valuable observations although not all apply to people here, and certainly some comments I can’t agree with. As you said, fans who don't post here will read it as well so its valuable reminder for them, if not for those of us who post here.

      My responses:

      When I say Lin fans ,I do not mean guys on this website.

      > You say that observations are not based on fans contributing to this website, but at the same time some advice seems to apply to us who post here. I have to take that you at least mean some of this applies to fans on this website if you are to think we should follow your advice.

      Lin’s phenomenal games were great BUT before you can establish yourself as a great player you would need to do that consistently for more that 25 games.

      > I see the force in some of your points, but Lin played well for more than 25 games
      > Young players who accomplish less do not get the same criticism, although not the same hype, but hype is because he was underrated

      People also keep harping on lin being unlike other nba players who are “thugs”

      > The nba and other professional sports like NHL follow thug rules and I do not recall anyone referring to all players as thugs. Some players are called thugs, such as Kidd, and there was reason to call him that after that hard flagrant foul

      I want to let you all know that God would take care of Lin so please do not rant online and talk bad about other races.

      > Don’t assume that all criticisms are necessarily motivated by malicious intent (‘talking bad’) and race. I don’t see problem with fair criticism based on non-discriminatory standards, even if this is directed at certain races such as Chinese.

      If Lin wants to be in the all star game he has to be at an elite level. That is why I don’t want Lin to be in the all star game , it would just cause more people to get upset.

      > You assume that Lin is not performing at an elite level. His whole career from high school to nba shows that he is an elite player.
      > I do see your point that Lin being in a the all-star game may cause more hate, but it is not JLin's fault and he shouldn't have to expect less than what is arguably entitled.

      Lin’s fans know that this might sound offensive but the fans are reinforcing stereotypes.

      > You conclude that such fans enforce stereoptypes. But stereotypes are first created by someone, and with Lin these are often racists. I don’t agree putting the blame on those who supposedly ‘enforce stereotypes’.

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    11. Together with the media, the fans have put Lin on the pedestal. Yes, Lin has had phenomenal games but is that enough? NO! Lin has to play consistently well and Lin has said many times that it was the toughest challenge. People want Lin to fail people the fans have hailed him to be better than kobe? (after 1 game) but yet his fans scream that people are racist/ unfair that they are criticizing Lin for 1 bad game against Miami.

      > YES, it is enough to put a player who has broken the record for points scored in first five starts on a pedestal. His background must also come into play when justify putting him on a pedestal. He is put on a pedestal for both basketball and non-basketball reasons. Whether it is justified to continue putting him on a pedestal from a NBA basketball experience stand-point, we will see in the next season.

      > Even if I were to say Lin is better than top PGs like Rondo, it is not based on 1 game, whereas people focus on one bad game against Miami to say that Lin is overrated.

      People say Lin will be a bust this year because there were many people who have had good starts like Lin but fizzled. Here again, I am reluctant to pull the race card because there have been people who were hailed as the next big thing but failed. Lin wil be seen as a bust because many are seeing the 25 million and not how it is divided year by year.
      Other silly comments I have heard is how lin is more clutch than lebron?! , Novak is going downhill because Lin is not there? (FYI, Novak has always been a good sharpshooter , just undersused. Novak became know because of more playing time and that Lin was unselfish. )

      > People also don’t say Irving or Wall will be a bust this year. Why the double standards?

      > Novak is a good shooter, but his production may go downhill because current Knicks, unlike Lin, may not facilitate him

      > Lebron is not the most clutch player if you look at his end game performance especially in the playoffs before this year, despite how talented he is. Not concluding who is more clutch, but even if someone made that argument, its not so surprising.

      Iii) Harping on Character. Many compare between Lin and other “arrogant” players. Do you not see that people do not care about that? Having a good character is just an added bonus. Also many keep harping on Dolan and what they think MElo did. No one cares about that anymore. Everyone has to move on.

      > Who are you to say what I can and cannot appreciate about an athlete? Some people may not care about ‘that’, but certainly many others do. “harping” suggests that discussion is not based on substantial concerns. Who are you to say that I am not to be sensitive towards Dolan and Melo’s behaviour?

      Delete
    12. iv)not giving due credit/hating on other players./ knicks
      After the Lin saga, many went on to say 1) Knick would never win pissed off many knick fans and made Lin look like Lebron james . 2) Melo will never win pissed of Melo and knick fans
      > Without concluding that Knicks would never win, but their 6-13 record before Lin and the 7 game winning streak after Lin played significant minutes shows that such a claim is not uninformed or absolutely “not giving due credit/hating other players/knicks”
      > And again not making a conclusion, but with Melo not winning any championships or getting far into the playoffs, unlike his contemporaries Wade and LBJ, so far may be fair basis for claim that he may never win, it is not entirely fans (of NBA and Lin) being unfair and “not giving due credit/hating other players/knicks”

      I have seen so many people keep cursing the knicks, saying they would fail… it would pissed off people. If you have not realized hey still put Lin related articles under ESPN New York. I only realized how important sports were to many people after this whole Lin saga, but it has applied to other athletes. Athletes are people too but sometimes they are so passionate about sports people forget.

      > The general theme is that you assume Lin fans instigate. On the contrary, when fans criticise Knicks, it is a two way street “trolling” if you can even call it that, and at least here, in response to what JLin fans felt were unwarranted.

      Lin is an nba player, he will get criticized, it is normal.

      >While all NBA players will get criticized, the defence by Lin fans is not just against criticism, but unfair criticism and double standards.

      I have sticked up for Lin on online forums, threads telling them that he is no fluke and that they cant take anything away from him after what he has done.
      The criticism that Lin(maybe more than warranted) has are also the same criticism that other players go though except we don't know if they are motivated by race or not.

      > I’d say many criticisms are warranted as JLin admitted in the Q&A himself, but the conclusions drawn from them are many times not wrranted. e.g. SAS ‘marginal point guard’ ‘not starting point guard’ etc etc

      Lastly, I will say this again. My main objective is to let people understand why Lin is hated (warranted or not).I am not bashing his fans here but his fans( not from this site). I am just letting people know why certain people perceive certain things .

      > Even though you say your advice / criticism is not directed to fans here, many of them to apply to discussions here, and thus my reply. I do appreciate you taking the time to write this out to remind those fans to whom your observations do apply to.

      Delete
    13. Thanks for the detailed reply. My post has obviously caused some unhappiness/misunderstandings so I deleted it. I would like to clarify some things that you have said but I think we all should move on. I thought I was doing a favour to let the fans know what other people might perceive but I am not telling you guys what you should or should not do. If anything, I have reasoned out with people about Lin and they themselves admitted that they were just trolling and that they didnt really hate Lin. I just wanted to show that if anybody were to come to this site or if you have participated in other forums, we can always reasoned with them. In fact, I disagree with all the negative things people have said and you are right, that there are double standards.
      Anyhow, thanks:)

      Delete
    14. I for one appreciate mint deleting the posts because they were 5 parts and every one of them was lengthy (all in hard-on-the-eyes one paragraph each)... but mainly because they sounded apologetic to the haters - what for? I don't want any haters getting any more ideas all from one place - and a great place at that.

      Delete
    15. Dude, I think we are well attuned enough to democratic dialogue to deal with disagreements and misunderstandings.

      I also think we are mature enough to deal with unhappiness that these misunderstandings cause.

      Where I am from, freedom of expression is very important. I don't see why you needed to delete your comment.

      In any case, as long as you are okay with 'moving on'...

      Delete
    16. @ mint

      I think JLin fans do see what you're trying to say.

      I considered your point & took down that post bec I wouldn't want to risk even an infinitesimal chance it might be used against him. But really, everything on this site is no secret.
      ---

      "I want to let you all know that God would take care of Lin so please do not rant online and talk bad about other races."

      - The reason it might seems like ranting on other races is bec EVERYBODY is under "other races." Perhaps it's not racial at all?


      You might only see Nyk-related posts on here that are mostly neg, perhaps bec most things Nyk that touches on JLin will reference their not-so-happy history. It might seem 1-sided bec obviously there would be no reason to post on the Nyk in a JLIN FANSITE unless it concerns JLin somehow. Positive Nyk articles will never be posted bec...why? This is a JLIN FANSITE. A Nyk fan might feel like there's an imbalance bec of this.

      Delete
    17. Hey Ztrta, I did not mean for it to sound apologetic to the haters at all. However, I understand where you are coming from . I actually had trouble uploading the post, maybe it was a sign that I should not post it . Ha ha. Thanks anyway :)

      Hey Wilc, as I said before, this website is one of the better websites I have been on and I would not want to be the reason for anyone being unhappy but I am still going to contribute my opinions on whatever matter I see fit.

      Delete
    18. @ mint

      As you said, you can't please everyone. If you contribute your opinions freely, there is always a chance you will be the reason for someone to be unhappy.

      Delete
    19. Hey Wong, the negativity about nyk was not from this site. That I can assure you :) In fact, I am not siding melo or knicks .IF anything, I know the knicks and melo didnt want Lin and tainted his reputation. As said before, my research is what I have discovered from the past few months and maybe I should clarify that it did not come from this site. It was just to let people know why they were so harsh to Lin and his fans which I admittedly thought was unwarranted.
      Hope we can move past this :)
      I will only reply if someone replied to my post .

      Delete
    20. By "they" ,I mean people in general who were harsh to Lin and his fans

      Delete
    21. (;~) @mint (;~)

      I can tell you're fairly new here (including at lurking), but as you can see everything is cool here.

      Just be yourself now on. I wouldn't have suggested deleting your first posts *if* you didn't offer it first yourself...... Do you want to post them back? Hahaha.

      Delete
    22. @ztrta :nah its alright :) Lurking?! ha ha. Man, I am real excited for this upcoming season.:)

      Delete
    23. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    24. @mint,

      You know what "lurking" is right? It's a term for people who visits and reads without being members/posters. There are far more "lurkers" than posting members. I used to be one of them, laugh.

      Delete
    25. @ ztrta
      Yes I do know what lurking is!! ha ha . The word just has such a negative connotation to it. Anyway, if during the play-offs, the thunder and lakers meet, Who do you think would win? I am more inclined to think okc? how about about you?

      Delete
    26. Thunder! Just a gut feeling.

      Delete
    27. Same here ! I think LAL's disadvantage is mike brown and chemistry issues. Then again, anything can happen. I am rooting for the thunder . I think Westbrook needs to more disciplined. Hope he gets it together.

      Delete
    28. @mint:

      You shoudlnt have deleted anything. You tried to explain why people hate JLin and claimed that JLin fans should understand the other side. You were trying to make a point and instead of standing strong you pulled back. Now whoever reads the replies wont even understand what they are all about. Well done.

      BTW - you mentioned that JLin graduated from Harvard and other players didnt and that this fact causes trouble. Now - what do you expect? You expect people to be ashamed of their accomplishments? Its america dude. People in the states dont hide their success or wealth. The fact that they dont grant that to JLin only shows how bigot people are - double standard again. In such a situation you want JLin supporters to pull back? I really dont get it!

      Besides - JLin is not the only one who went to college. Landry Fields went to Stanford and I havent read a single line anywhere that showed that people had a problem with that - once again - dont be too respectful - dont be a living stereotype. Dont apply the double standard on JLin if you are a JLin fan.

      You also mentioned that many players have a background of growing up in poverty and being discriminated. What about players like Nowitzki? Did he ever have to appologize for not being a minority or not being black or for being rich? Again - double standard.

      Its nice that youre trying to enlighten people - but do you think you have brought up any knowledge that wasnt accessible to us?

      This is how I would summarize your posts:

      Asian fans shoudlnt root for Jeremy too much cause that causes turmoil. We are nice and respectful so we dont want that. Asian fans showing pride reinforces stereotypes. We are nice and respecful so we shouldnt show pride - rather go with some other stereotype. JLin is too smart and that causes turmoil. We are nice and respectful so we shoudlnt even mention that JLin went to college eventhough other players did, too. That could hurt someones racist pride. In the end - JLin shouldnt play at all - playing the way he does takes swagger and swagger could hurt peoples pride. So basicly haters and racists arent the problem. JLin is the problem - and of course his fans. We arent nice and respectful enough.

      Delete
    29. Since day one there have been crazy people trying to bash Lin and control his fans. Just take Knicks.com. There was one guy with at least 5 different screennames who wrote the same stuff again and again - not just trying to bash or insult JLin but also to manipulate people. He could just ignore JLin fans but he doesnt. He follows them everywhere - I am convinced that that person is active on this site as well - acting like a JLin fan. Now allow me to ask - why is it that other fans praise their stars all the time while certain JLin fans pop up here - ask people to hold back and be ashamed of themselves and disappear without warning? That happens all the time. What makes it weirder is that this is not even a real forum. People here are quite nice and honest. We hardly talk about anyone else but JLin.

      Just take the new Naim Video. It only has 300 viewers right now. And yet - some JLin hater had to find it, watch it and post something like "Naim is over JLin". Crazy aint it?

      Delete
    30. Well said willydilly! I couldn't believe a self claimed Asian guy blamed Lin and his fans to make excuses for those racists and haters. No wonder even Lin said that he will always have haters because even some of his fellow Asians who are supposed to be his biggest supporters could find ways to diminish him while promoting other races. I also agreed that I saw no reason why Lin and his fans should keep a low profile in fear of backlash, it's the definition of being soft and having no pride of own race IMO.

      Also, I found it hilarious for people to blame Asian people for Lin's "hype" and "over exposure". Last I checked most of people in espn and in nba circle are black and they were the ones who couldn't stop talking about Lin. Lin's biggest supporter Magic Johnson is also a black. So a black person like Magic had the right to declare Lin's a cross between Steve Nash and John Stockton but we Asian fans couldn't say Lin's a better player than Carmelo Anthony, Kyrie Irving and the likes?

      Delete
  23. stephen a smith getting owned:
    http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=226435

    ReplyDelete
  24. like KHuang said, you have to be strong and stand up for what you believe is right. if you feel that someone is insulting you then you have to confront them (preferably in a peaceful way) in order for them to stop. if you cower in fear, people will never give you any respect and they will continue to step on you. i don't like making excuses for myself. but what's worst than that, is making excuses for others when they are clearly being racist. everybody has their own way to deal with racism, and that's fine, but i don't like it when someone feels they need to lower their heads even lower to gain respect. stand tall and proud and represent.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yeah, and don't be afraid to BREAK PEOPLE IN HALF if that's what it takes (even physically).

      Once you've fought enough wars, the racists and bad guys can identify you as a dangerous target. They slink off because they know that they endanger their own safety by taking you on.

      Occasionally you get a really BAD dude who wants to take you out. If you've trained properly, you DESTROY HIM in a very public way. What hurts him is not the emotional or physical damage you inflict, but the SOCIAL. His buddies and even society at large will laugh at him after you've shattered his ego and body.

      There are tons of bad people out there who don't respond to polite social defenses. The knly thing they respond to is a beatdown, and you as an Asian American male have to be ready to administer that whupping.

      Jeremy Lin has been KICKING RACIST BUTT from the time he first dribbled a basketball as a kid. Learn from him as he punks everybody that hated on him!

      Delete
  25. Since there are so many players and no doubt some coaches (Keith Smart) that want Jeremy Lin to fail or be out of the league, Lin needs to watch out that there *IS* bounty program in the NBA, whether paid by money, gifts, or by some other "tangible" satisfaction. NBA does an extremely poor job of regulating filthy plays, as they define flagrant as *unnecessary* (not really defined at all) and must have a *follow through" motion ( the example in the below link didn't need a "follow through"). Kobe is one of the dirtiest players, but it's still wrong:

    Shocking excerpt from: http://www.hoopsvibe.com/nba-news-and-rumors/articles/170005-rose-admits-to-trying-to-injure-kobe-bryant

    On ESPN Grantland radio Jalen Rose came clean this week about some dirty play between himself and Kobe Bryant. The incident took place in the 2000 NBA Finals where Jalen admits he purposely slid his foot underneath Kobe while he went up for a jumpshot, hoping the Black Mamba would land on it and possibly twist or break his ankle.

    The actual result was Kobe did land on Jalen's foot and he twisted his ankle, hobbled off the court, and was forced to miss the next game.The Pacers won the game in question 100-91, but of course eventually lose the series to the Lakers.

    Jalen stated,

    “NBA Finals, 2000. Kobe. Bean. Bryant. Goes up for a jump shot on the right wing, I contest the jump shot, Kobe lands on my foot. He hobbles off, and he actually misses the next game. Now, if it was up to me? If it was up to me? He should’ve just missed the whole series. I would have had a championship ring, and it’d be no harm, no foul.”

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Like I said above, Lin is simply going to have to administer plenty of beatdowns.

      There are so many ways to beat down an opponent in basketball using legal means, even if they are illegally headhunting you.

      Lin is one of the toughest and smartest players in the NBA. He also plays for Coach Kevin McHale who was utterly ruthless as an enforcer in his playing days and is known for toughening guys up.

      Lin will be just fine. The headhunting will only RAISE his game. I seriously doubt anybody is going to injure him again like what happened in Dallas.

      Delete
    2. By the way, it's highly possible that Jalen Rose would've won that ring if he spent more time PLAYING instead of CHEATING!

      That was a good series, Indiana vs LA. It was highly competitive and easily could've been won by Indiana. Ultimate Shaq's superior talent won out, as it should have.

      Delete
    3. Yep. I think legally hard fouling is the way to go. Jalen could have done better, I guess.

      I cringe when anyone tries to take another player out of commission. ALL these NBA players worked hard all their life and they have families just like everybody else. They make good money but it's hard work, and none of them gets to sleep in their own bed 50% of the time; and offseason is getting shorter and shorter, in order to keep up with other teams..... And I love hearing guys talk about supporting their single moms.

      Delete
    4. "...legally hard fouling is the way to go."

      - If people know you won't retaliate, even more they'll go carte blanche on you.

      Delete
  26. JLin sends jersey to young Nyk fan, as promised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1OwNNJJqvg

    HM ‏@TheMindOfHM
    Hey @JLin7 we just got the jersey! Thank you again! Can't wait for Naim to come home from school to open the package! #Rockets #Knicks
    11:37 AM - 21 Sep 12

    ReplyDelete
  27. To mint,

    If you're really an Asian, I want to tell you that the worse thing than racism is the complex inferiority of yourself. I don't see any reason why Lin and his fans shouldn't stand up and fight like any other races. I don't see any reason why an Asian guy like Lin shouldn't be in the spotlight and as the center of attention like other races want to be. Too many Asian people just want to be nice and make peace and do not want to fight other races because they don't think they can win over other races (not my stereotype but evident by your posts).

    As an Asian, you shouldn't think like that and feel inferior. That's all I want to say.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, I am really Asian. I dont know where you got the idea that I have inferiority complex. Maybe because of the passive tone that I used? Anyhow,my experience is that I have been able to talk to haters on-line and I have talked to them and they saw things in my point of view and agreed with me about Lin and some even admitted they were just trolling. Is like for me, when some guy spat at me , I smiled at him right in his face, and walked off like nothing happened and it pissed him off so much he wanted to pick a fight. I know these racist people just wanted to annoy me and I was not going to show them they could get to me and ruin my day . If I had picked a fight, I would have gotten a suspension and there were teachers who were racist too. So this method of ignoring worked for me. That is why when Lin said that he learn to ignore those players who used racial slurs I could understand where he was coming from. They wanted to distract him in the game.
      Maybe it wont work on-line because they operate under the cloak of anonymity . Whatever it is, this method did work for me but it doesn't make me a whimp whatsoever . I am not here to tell what you should or should not do. Pardon me for my lack of clarity. It was to share my experiences. As you can see, I have deleted the post. Anyhow, lets move on :)

      Delete
    2. You do not represent asian JLin fans - whoever you talked to does not represent the JLin haters.

      This is how I would summarize your posts:

      Asian fans shoudlnt root for Jeremy too much cause that causes turmoil. We are nice and respectful so we dont want that. Asian fans showing pride reinforces stereotypes. We are nice and respecful so we shouldnt show pride - rather go with some other stereotype. JLin is too smart and that causes turmoil. We are nice and respectful so we shoudlnt even mention that JLin went to college eventhough other players did, too. That could hurt someones racist pride. In the end - JLin shouldnt play at all - playing the way he does takes swagger and swagger could hurt peoples pride. So basicly haters and racists arent the problem. JLin is the problem - and of course his fans. We arent nice and respectful enough.

      Too bad you deleted your posts already. Otherwise everyone could read em themselves. Let me ask you once more. Do you think you have brought up any knowledge that wasnt accessible to us?

      Also - since day one there have been crazy people trying to bash Lin and control his fans. Just take Knicks.com. There was one guy with at least 5 different screennames who wrote the same stuff again and again - not just trying to bash or insult JLin but also to manipulate people. He could just ignore JLin fans but he doesnt. He follows them everywhere - I am convinced that that person is active on this site as well - acting like a JLin fan. Now allow me to ask - why is it that other fans praise their stars all the time while certain JLin fans pop up here - ask people to hold back and be ashamed of themselves and disappear without warning? It happens - all the time.

      I dont care if youre asian or not - anyway - I dont believe you are. If youre asian - you have some serious problems just like Cara said.

      Delete
    3. Easy. willydilly.

      Mint is respectful and is trying hard to be a good strong person. He has my full respect.

      We on jeremylin.net are an infinitesimally small representation of militant strong Asians who are vocal and defiant in the face of overwhelming racism. Mint is ONE OF US, otherwise he wouldn't be here!

      Mint is learning how to find his strength. I'm trying to help him find it, not run away from it.

      Delete
  28. It's because in your previous posts I saw you suggest Lin should not be in the ASG in fear of backlash. I saw you basically say that Lin and his fans should make peace with Melo, NYK and their racist supporters. I saw you not willing to put Lin as an equal or better than Irving and instead brought up a player of Chamlers caliber. I don't think you believe that an Asian can be the main man and be the best of the best. Just look at other races, black basketball players and fans would never worry about backlash, being nice or not, those kinds of stuff. I don't think you, as an Asian, should feel Asian people are inferior in basketball or any other fields for that matter.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Man, I obviously did not craft my post well for you to think that way.
      There is a difference between wanting to believe and actually believing. I will give you an illustration. I WANT to believe that Lin can one day be a champion but I believe that Lin MAY not win a championship NOT because he cant, but because of the possible backlash .
      I am Asian dude. I have experienced racism before in the UK do you not think that I want Lin to kick ass to show that we Asians know how to ball? His breakout was an indication of what he could become if he works on his flaws. The thing is , if I am unsure about Lin ,then I am a non believer? No man... I tell you, a non believer is when people are absolute that Lin will never amount to anything.
      I want to clarify things , but I think I should just give it a rest . Let's just move on.

      Delete
    2. Bro, sorry to break this to you, it might be harsh, but your fear of backlash is exactly a sign of your inferiority complex. For example, you never see Melo or his fans don't declare he can win a championship because of possible backlash. They are confident in their ability and race as one should be, unlike you. I don't know if it's your experience of racism that made you unconsciously believe what the racists said about you and made you lose your confidence in your own self and your race. It's unfortunate if yes.

      Delete
    3. I just cant seem to get my point across. You have totally misunderstood what I am trying to say. Its fine. Btw, I am not suffering from inferiority complex . Having those experiences didnt make me feel inferior at all because those bigots dont mean anything to me at all. I talked about my experiences because someone thought I was non Asian and trying to downplay what Asians feel. I am a Christian and I try to live my life by loving my enemies . It does not make me a whimp or inferior . If you think otherwise, then so be it.

      Delete
    4. Sorry I might have misunderstood you and I respect you as a calm and quiet guy. But my point remains your theory of other Asian people should not be loud and stand up in their opinions as other races spells plain "inferiority complex". You are what you are but other Asian people are also what they are. If other Asians (aka Lin and his fans) like to showboat, argue, make bold predictions or even scream ala SAS to make a point like their many black counterparts, why couldn't you let them be? Why should all Asians keep an image of being nice, quiet and calm like you?

      Delete
    5. I dont intend to reply with regards to your post because your definition of standing up for Lin is rather different from mine. Also if trying to make peace is seen as a sign of inferiority complex , then I rather have "inferior complex" I will go about doing what I do which is reasoning with those haters whom I had some success with. I have even made friends with one of them. I hope that maybe one day you can experience how rewarding it is to make something positive (my friendship with the hater and respect to Jeremy and Asians)out of something negative( the haters' comments).

      Delete
    6. You are WEAK, mint.

      If some guy spits in my face, he is in for a BEATDOWN. Doesn't matter if he's a foot taller than me or 100 lbs heavier or had friends. Even if I physically can't get to him, I'll socially or legally TAKE HIM AND HIS BODYGUARDS DOWN.

      It doesn't matter what culture somebody is from, a man has to be a man and defend himself.

      Delete
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    9. @ willydilly

      While I agree with your promoting the approach that us Asian fans are justified to have as proud Asians, I cannot say the same about what you see a relationship with God to requires.

      While some of your statements about being a Christian are true, others are also not true. I am not adept at Christian apologetics, but here are a few things I like to say:

      "That supernatural power oversees how much you give to church..."

      > Faith is not about how much you give. It seems like you feel God puts weight on that when it comes to salvation.

      "...what you put in your digestive chamber,.."

      > I'm from a non-denominational church, but from what I understand even the major denominations don't dictate what you eat.

      "...who youre intimate with and in what position,.."

      > I guess who you're intimate with can apply to wives of other people. But regarding position, I am not aware Christian faith dictates that (at least not on my stream of Christianity).

      "... on what days you worship and how you worship."

      > Technically, you should worship God everyday....but my point is its not about deeds.

      "... Any deviation fromt that? Burn baby burn!..."

      > I trust God is more nuanced and reasonable than that.
      God is a good God. Good does not mean he will spoil those who are his creation.

      "Because every good christian is a servant, a slave before the supernatural leader."

      > Christians are sons and daughters of God, not slaves. We are may be servants to others and God, but that is very different from slaves.

      Many of the other points you raise about how the old testament degrades women, allows men to abuse women, okay with murder, theft, and genocide, and people killing peoples of other faith in the name of their religions, admittedly are puzzles that I deal with. Perhaps some others will have an answer to explaining these apparent contradictions. However, I can say that most Christians nowadays do not subscribe to these instances of behaviour.


      Delete
    10. Just as mint does not represent all Asian Lin fans, mint also does not represent all Christian Lin fans. But as a Christian, I do regret that a Christian brother like mint has made you feel that Christians are somehow necessarily more moral or ethical than non-believers. Personally, I believe that Christians need Christ because we are naturally immoral and unethical. Becoming a Christian does not magically stop us from sinning and being perfect goody two shoes.

      Delete
    11. Also, as a Christian, I personally don't agree with mint's approach of keeping you head down when someone spits in your face and be satisfied that the other person will feel even more enraged.

      To me, wishing the other to be enraged is retaliation itself and not quite "Christian" behaviour that mint seems to suggest.

      But Christian responses do not always mean do not defend yourself. Not an expert on Christian ethics, but I am pretty sure Christians are allowed to use violence when warranted.

      Again personally, I'd be cautious and hesitant about when to use violence, but as many have pointed out here, some times violence is justified. Fortunately I have not had to deal with a situation in which I felt I needed to resort to violence, but I believe God's wisdom will guide me in deciding which situations call for some smack down.

      Delete
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    13. No, of course I don't deny that these things did happen. Its just that I question how you interpret some of these facts. Doesn't seem right to me. For example, why say the bible is plagiarised from other religious texts? Is it because of the similarities in the history they record? Are similarities necessarily a result of plagiarism?

      Even in the big picture, I can't help but feel doubt as to the correctness of the cynical nature of your interpretation of the Christian faith.

      Delete
    14. @wilc:

      First - Id like to apologize to people whose feelings I might have hurt. Being a christian myself I know its often hard to be confronted with certain facts. I dont say people are bad just because they are religios and people shall be good and religios withour being criticised by me. I also need to point out that english is not my first language so I sometimes might choose inapropriate words or phrases.

      Then again - I believe that we can debate faith without taking it personal. If being asked - I always like answer and engange in debates.

      Why do I say that religios people think or even claim to be superior to others? Because they have several things atheists dont have.

      For one thing - they have hell. Hell is where the bad people go. Its not always neccesary to have law and order settle things. Then again - criminals often justify what they are doing by saying - I commit the crime now - thats ok because I will pay when im dead. Then again - I have had a traumatizing childhood having a grandma telling me -> be a good boy and eat up or you will go to hell. Many christians can remember having nightmares as kids because of these things.

      Of course - there is heaven. That is where you go when you have done well. Depending on the set of rules you play by you have done well when you have bribed the church (sale of indulgence), killed non believers even when victims are the nicest people on earth (angry people I wont mention) or done right things (tell people condoms are worse than aids, discriminate gay people and so on). Depending on your religion it can also be an exclusive thing - exclusive contract with god that includes the promised land that certain people still fight over. Heaven is great - you no longer help people because its good to do so. Its good to help because you benefit from it.

      Now - there is a third place where people/children go if they die unbaptised. Yes - the parents of a child can be christians - the child can be supposed to be christians - but then again - if it dies unbaptised it goes to limbo and suffers there. Now - THE CHURCH has changed the doctrine recently. Limbo no longer exist. Have you ever watched a woman cry because she now doesnt know where her child is now?

      Of course christians have one more thing that others dont have. Moral and ethics. Moral and ethics derive from the commandments and the bible and christ. Of course it would be rediculous to asumme that before the commandments - the people of Moses used to steal from another, kill each other, harassed and raped each other all the time just for fun. With the ten commandments - all crime seized immediately - or not?

      Funny how chinese people had law and order, philosophy and science at the same time - without having the commandments. I wasnt there but I would claim that crime rate in china wasnt higher than in the middle east back then. Also funny how indigenous people all over the world who have never seen a bible live together in peace and harmony.

      And of course - christians have gods provision. They have god or christ and they know there will be salvation as long as they stick to the savior. What salvation requires depend on your book of rules and who leads you. The church claims to know and to have absoulute moral and ethics. But then again - jewish people used to be responsible for Jesus death - then they were not. Babies used to go to limbo - now they dont. Burning witches used to be ok. Now it isnt.

      If you look closer you will see that it was often not the church to give out useful moral and ethical standards. It was often the church who had to adapt to peoples/societys new standards. If thats so - what is the church good for?

      No - here is a link to a discussion that reveals the weak spots of faith and the churches moral and ethics and if the church is a force for good:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5OMNPmoVAw

      As Im writing this I realize that it might not be so good to further debate faith here. If interested we can exchange Email adresses and debate in priavte.

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    17. It doesn't matter what religion one is.

      The rule of nature is like this. A bully had better ve able to take the heat when his victims turn HIM into the victim.

      Religion gives people a way of NOT having to learn that rule of nature the hard way, or at least makes the lesson more palatable.

      I've been discriminated against on religious grounds, albeit not to the same extent as I am racially discriminated against. Most of those people were extremely religious and were "good people" by the decree of their faith. But even they had to learn the hard way that the entitlement their faith gave them did not save them from BEATDOWNS if they trampled all over others.

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    18. @ willydilly

      I really don't see the intention or conclusion you are trying to draw behind statements like

      "Christians used to say that jews killed Jesus - you heard about that? Do you realise that Jesus himself was jewish and that all christians worship a jewish carpenter?"

      Are you saying that because Christians say Jewish people killed Jesus and Jesus is in fact a Jewish carpenter, somehow Christianity should be discredited?

      The fact that there are three monotheistic religions based on the same history shows what exactly? Even if the texts take historic facts from each other, that does not discredit one text or the other does it?

      In any case, I don't think a debate through private email will be very beneficial since I am not debating the accuracy of these facts.

      I simply wish to express my opinion based on logical observation that even though I may agree with the facts that you state such as the bible being a collection of books, and that Jesus is a Jewish carpenter, you seemingly put a negative spin on these facts, and almost tending towards the end of discrediting the bible or disproving the integrity behind Christianity.

      Lol, this discussion is almost a parallel with the discussions with doubters of JLin who point out true facts but interpret these facts in a way to try to discredit him.

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    19. @ KHuang

      "But even they had to learn the hard way that the entitlement their faith gave them did not save them from BEATDOWNS if they trampled all over others."

      I do wish to point out that although willdilly has pointed out that people use religion to bully, manipulate, control others, this does not mean the religion itself commands believers to do so. I must say that your discussion of physical confrontation have inspired me to take a more assertive approach towards aggressors, so I thank you for that.

      @ willydilly

      It seems that our agreement is with interpretation of historic facts and reasonable people can disagree on what is the 'correct' interpretation. With my faith, relationship and story with my Christian God, along with the historic facts, I believe my interpretation that the bible and Christ is the TRUTH is correct. Again this is a topic that reasonable people can disagree on and I it won't seem like a cop out to you that I suggest we just 'agree to disagree.'

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    20. It doesn't matter what religion one is.

      The rule of nature is like this. A bully had better ve able to take the heat when his victims turn HIM into the victim.

      Religion gives people a way of NOT having to learn that rule of nature the hard way, or at least makes the lesson more palatable.

      I've been discriminated against on religious grounds, albeit not to the same extent as I am racially discriminated against. Most of those people were extremely religious and were "good people" by the decree of their faith. But even they had to learn the hard way that the entitlement their faith gave them did not save them from BEATDOWNS if they trampled all over others.

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    23. @wilc:

      I like JLin as an athlete and person. I dont try to use him to proselytise like some churches do. If I met JLin and had a chat with him and religion came up - I would still say the same as above. I would tell him that I think christian charity is wrong. According to wide spread thinking amongst christians - those who give shall be honored and those who receive shall be gratefull. How apalling. Where is human solidarity in that? The roman church has billions on its account. Why not use the money to help people? No - they keep collect money, attack science, attack enlightenment, attack reason and thats why the world is what it is.

      Doctors without borders dont proselytise. They dont expect a "thanks" when they help. And as Richard Dawkins keep pointing out - 90% of all elite scientists in GB or USA are atheists... for good reason. That debate - based on true facts and knowledge cant even be won by a great debater like Tony Blair

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddsz9XBhrYA&feature=endscreen

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    24. @wilc:

      I like JLin as an athlete and person. I dont try to use him to proselytise like some churches do. If I met JLin and had a chat with him and religion came up - I would still say the same as above. I would tell him that I think christian charity is wrong. According to wide spread thinking amongst christians - those who give shall be honored and those who receive shall be gratefull. How apalling. Where is human solidarity in that? The roman church has billions and billions in banks and assets all over the world. Why not use the money to help poor people? Why keep collecting money? Why instead attack science and enlightenment? We know that poverty can be eliminated by empowering women. What does the church try to prevent that from happening? No condom. No pill. Otherwise -> burn baby burn. It degrades women to birth machines. Wether its asia or africa - we already know that the empowerment of women solves problems.

      Doctors without borders dont proselytise. They dont expect a "thanks" when they help. And as Richard Dawkins keep pointing out - 90% of all elite scientists in GB or USA are atheists... for good reason. This debate - if dealing with real facts and knowledge cant even be won by a great debater like Tony Blair (former Prime Minister of GB):

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddsz9XBhrYA&feature=endscreen

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    25. Uh...speaking of Christianity, here's a hilarious scene from the Hollywood flick Talledega Nights debating the merits of which version of Jesus to pray to: baby Jesus, party Jesus, ninja Jesus, or Leonard Skynard Jesus.

      Personally, I prefer baby Jesus cuz ... babies are cute.

      LOL.

      Ricky Bobby family dinner
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuAUI_0knfk

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    26. @willydilly

      "How dare you drag JLin into this or compare me with his critics? Is that how good christians do it nowadays?"

      I don't see any reason I should not dare to challenge your questionable interpretation of historical facts. Don't make this issue about 'dragging JLin into this.' Don't make this about how good Christians should behave. It is about how I simply think your logic interpretation is wrong. Just like how I think some critics of JLin interpret JLin's weaknesses the wrong way.

      "With every line you wrote you only demonstrate ignorance. I now know you havent read the bible - not to mention the torah or the other one. Interpretation of historical events? You dont get the point. The books contradict each other ..."

      I believe the bible is an accurate record of historical events. I cannot vouch for the other religious texts nor am I trying to disprove them. What I believe is that the integrity of the bible cannot be challenged based on what the bible records.

      "...wich is why people fight over the promised land and kill each other everyday and why the US is pumpin money into it."

      I don't see how that even if the holy texts contradict, how this can be seen as a defect of the integrity of the bible. One of the causes of people fighting over the promised land maybe their believe that this is what their religions require. However, the conclusion that therefore the religious texts are faulty in integrity (ie internal consistency) does not logically flow from the fact that people have used them to do things that you disagree on.

      "You cant debate christianity on the basis of wishfull thinking and ingnorance. With some book claiming that Jesus rose from the dead - other never mention that with a word. Compare that with historical records of the time - noone has seen how all graves have opened up and dead people walking the streets as the bible claimed...."

      Again I believe that the bible is an accurate historical record of time. Many events in the bible are historically accurate even when compared to non religious texts. That shows not only the integrity of the bible (ie being internally consistent), but that it has credibility as a historical record.

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    27. I am not aware of any other historical text confirms that Jesus rose from the dead. I nevertheless believe this happened because the consistency of the teaching between the separate books in the bible. The consistency is a miracle in itself since these books were written by different authors at different times, but has not been demonstrated to lack integrity ie contradict each other after reasonable explanation based on biblical principles.

      "...You do know that during the time of Jesus there were already people writing down history? Why didnt they mention Jesus and his miracles with a word?"

      Again, the bible is a religious text, but also an accurate historical text. The bible is not just some bed time story the various writers made up. What is written there ACTUALLY happened.

      "According to wide spread thinking amongst christians - those who give shall be honored and those who receive shall be gratefull. How apalling. Where is human solidarity in that?"

      I don't know whether that is widespread thinking that those who give shall be honoured and those who receive should be grateful. I do know that Christians should realise that everything comes from God, and thus we should be grateful for what we have.

      "The earth is the Lord’s, and every thing in it, the world, and all who live in it." Psalm 24:1

      Paul also wrote that we should give cheerfully, and not in response to pressure.

      "You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves a person who gives cheerfully." - 2 Corinthians 9:7

      This does not show that 'widespread' Christian lacks human solidarity. If anything, it reinforces human solidarity as a result of gratefulness towards God for giving us things which He ultimately owns.

      "Richard Dawkins keep pointing out - 90% of all elite scientists in GB or USA are atheists... for good reason."

      Reason is only one part of religion. Religion cannot be evaluated based solely on reason. What's more important when approaching religion is that you can see the change in people through their relationship and faith in God.

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    28. "Christianity is the reason why millions of lifes are lost every year and why people suffer. And yet you dont seem to be a bit ashamed of it... good christian you are. You really need salvation."

      You peg human wrongdoing on God's teachings. Have you considered that humans merely do wrong in the name of God, instead of Christianity commanding people to do wrong. In some sense you can say that the existence of religion 'causes' these atrocities.

      I am ashamed of what Christians have done in the name of Christianity. But don't mistake all actions to be motivated by Christianity. And even if evil actions are motivated by a person's understanding of what the bible requires, this does not mean the text is itself evil. Just as in modern times one group of Muslims will feel it right to kill people in the name of Islam and carry out terrorist acts, this may simply mean this group has misinterpreted the Koran. The Koran does not become self-discrediting because it is capable of being used by to act in an evil way. People can use a fluffy white bunny as a reason to do evil, but does it mean the bunny is evil itself?

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    29. To those who isn't really interested about all the religious talk, sorry. Please do skip over.

      I do feel justified to clarify on a JLin forum because willydilly's claims about what Christianity requires and what Christians are like is capable of leading people to have a inaccurate view of my religion.

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    32. You guys are doing just fine being respectful to each other.

      Until Administration shuts us down, keep debating. I'm learning a lot. No need to delete anything.

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    33. @wilc:

      check Exodus 22:17 to see gods will on witches (kill em)

      chceck Leviticus 20:13 to see gods will on homosecuals (kill em)

      check Exodus 22:19 to see how to deal with people of other religion (kill em)

      check 2 Chronicles 15:12-13 to see how to deal with non believers (kill em)

      check Deuteronomy 13:13-19 and see how you as christian are to handle ONE person who worship other god than yours (murder them - the whole town - one is for sissys)

      check Exodus 31:12-15 to see how to deal with people who work on sabbath (sunday I guess - oh -> kill em)

      check Deuteronomy Deuteronomy 22:23-24 and see why you are supposed to kill a rape victim by stoning her to death

      check your bible under Samuel 12:11-14 and see how god threathen to have Davids wife raped and his child killed. As god forgives David god ONLY takes Davids child. How mercyful...

      check Exodus 21:7-11 to see gods rule on how to sell family members to be sex slaves

      check Exodus 21:20-21 on how to treat slaves. If a master hits a slave who dies - he shall be punished. If the slaves survives for a day or to he shall not be punished.

      I could do this all day long as the bible is better than any horror novel. You say its not evil? You havent read it.

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    36. @Khuang:

      You better learn a lot :) No kidding. Religion is the most sensitive topic there is. On a regular Forum I would leave it the way it is. This is JLin turf (though not official) and I dont want him to be asociated with my writing. Ive alread started to delete my posts. I usually write these things in minutes. Nothing I cant retrieve or rewrite.

      Anyway - it doesnt seem to help wilc at all. He claims after all that the bible is internally correct (though he doesnt even say wich bible) and that the teachings were correct (murder, slavery, rape is correct as he states) and that the bible is an accurate history book (earth made in 7 days and 4000 years old including flying saucers -> Ezechiel).

      He claims that faith cant be managed by reason and logic - what is true. After all - if everyone was reasonable and thinking logicly - there would be no religion. I have studied scripture and wilc is just repeating what all kiddos repeat to defend religion without having ever read the bible. They are like 5 year olds who talk about santa clause or the guy on Jimmy Kimmel who was given an Iphone 4s and asked how the Iphone 5 was. He said "its much better, faster and slimmer than the 4s". They dont care about logic cause they cant master it and they dont care it makes them bad scientists (if they are).

      I dont want to take their pacifier away :) I stick to whatever keeps this world running and at peace -> values of entlightenmend - wich people gave their lifes to defend. And btw -> check Thomas Jeffersons work on seperation of state and religion as he seemed to be just as critical as I am.

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    37. I can see how there might be a diff of perspectives between Christians, speaking from a point of immersion [completely buying-in] & non-Christians, from a farther stance [at the meta-levels, parsing things.]
      ---


      Yeah, the OT is quite harrowing.

      & There will always be opportunists [mostly cult-type religious leaders] who will use it to justify their hate.
      ---


      Most Christians I know tend to be progressive, quite a relief. :)

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    38. @ willydilly

      How do these events show what you link to the bible? I am pointing out the logical flaw in your observations on how the Protestant versions of the bible teachings should be blamed for various atrocities in the world. From the supposed link you conclude the bible is thus evil. That is what I meant by the bible is not an evil text. You cannot say that because people are inspired by a text to do evil the text is inherently evil. At least you cannot say that conclusively, which is a theme in you writings, which surprisingly coming from a self proclaimed Christian like you.

      In a previous post which you have since delete, you said that you are a Christian. That may be why i felt it right to engage in religious talk with you at all. Are you a Protestant? If not, perhaps that may be why you can be so convinced in its evil nature.

      I have admitted early on that I struggle with some of the events in the bible. I have said I'm not theology scholar nor have I studied apologetics.

      Rest assured that I have read the buble and was already aware of many of the passages. If what you mean by reading the bible is being able to explain everything there, I don't subscribe to the same meaning to reading. Look at it this way, a person who has watched a JLin game may not be able to explain everything that occurred. There are coaches who may be able to. There are also individuals like sas or magic johnson who claim they can explain in their interpretations. Does this mean this person, who is neither a coach, commentator, or former player, has never watched the game.

      As a person who has read he bible and critically thought about what is taught in there, with help from God in prayer and also more knowledgeable and trained Christians I have been blessed to meet, I don't think the comparison 5 year olds is warranted. I have also seen the fake iPhone 4S prank and yes it was hilarious. I don't think my long, but admittedly untrained, defence of the Protestant stream of Christianity can be reasonably viiewed as uninformed and uncritical as these people on Jimmy Kimmel.

      If you choose to be unreasonable and use attacks against the person type arguments, then hey I cant defend against that, but to say I am glad at least I've inspired some humor and a form of entertainment. This topic is much more to me than that however.



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    39. @wilc

      Just wanted to say...thank you for offering your views here. As a christian, I've been struggling as to whether to just turn the other cheek, or to stand up for my faith when I feel that there may be some misrepresentations of christianity here in this forum. It's somewhat similar to the debate going on about whether to be pacifist/moderate vs being aggresive/fighting back lol. I've posted things about religion previously (which I think you may have read as well) because in the end, I felt that God would not want me to just walk away without saying something to try to correct misconceptions, or at least offer an alternative view. Especially when there are non-Christians on this site as well..I don't want them to think that all Christians are pushovers or don't feel deeply enough about our faith to try to present our point of view..I was worried people might think "look...even the Christians are not contesting these points of view..it shows they are tacitly/silently in agreement or haven't really thought that deeply about their faith" Or worse, "look...even Christians put down their own faith". It's similar to KHuang's and many others' stance here that one should stand up for oneself (God, in this case) and not just lay low all the time. But on the other hand, I also understand where Mint is coming from.

      What I've learnt though...is that it also comes down to people having different experiences. I'm not American and was never subject to the kind of bullying that some of you guys had to go through. I mean, I always knew there was racism in western countries and saw some of it first hand even as a tourist...but I didn't realise that it could be so bad. So when you guys shared your experiences, I understand how you realised you sometimes have to be aggressive to gain respect.
      As a Christian, I'm expected to turn the other cheek...but I guess there are times when you have to stand up...in this case, when it's for my God. But we try to do it with love and respect. So I appreciate what you're trying to do Wilc. And as for willydilly, I appreciate him taking down his posts.
      For others, please don't take this as proselytising or arguing or whatever, we just felt that our faith is important enough for us to express our views...but in the end, I respect that others may have and are entitled to different views. My husband once advised me that it is only by the grace of God that we are saved, only God can soften the hearts of people to accept the message of the Gospel. There are lots of violent and seemingly incomprehensible things in the bible which we may not understand...but they CAN be explained, with study and prayer and revelation from God. Without God's help, no amount of human explanation will change how other people may view Christianity. What I as a Christian, CAN do however, is to gently explain my faith when I feel that it may be misconstrued. This is why, I promised previously not to post religious stuff anymore but am posting one now. My deepest apologies for breaking that promise, it's just that I wanted people to understand why Christians may feel compelled to post their religious views here...not to be defensive or anything, but because my faith is important to me and God is too close to my heart to have me ignore posts that may hurt Him. Just like how Jlin is important enough to his fans to defend and stand up for him :)

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    40. Thank you @anon for explaining some justifications for my standing up for my faith.

      Heads up for those who are uninterested in this religious discussion, please do skip over.

      For those who are interested, please do indulge me.

      ---------------------------------------------------

      Besides pointing out @willydilly’s flaw in the logic in concluding that the Christian bible is necessarily evil because it ‘causes’ evil doing and atrocities, I wish to show how cynical @willydilly view of the Christian bible is.

      He advised me to ‘check Exodus 21:7-11’, among other passages, so I did.

      7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.” - Exodus 21:7-11 (NIV)

      Matthew Henry’s commentary provides one explanation and interpretation of Exodus 21 that I find quite helpful and agreeable.

      First, it importantly explains that we are not bound by the customs and laws of that time, nor are the penalties binding on us.

      Henry’s analysis makes use of an understanding of the social conditions prevailing at the time to explain how maid-servants came to be and God’s commands in light of those social conditions.

      “Concerning maid-servants, whom their parents, through extreme poverty, had sold, when they were very young, to such as they hoped would marry them when they grew up; if they did not, yet they must not sell them to strangers, but rather study how to make them amends for the disappointment; if they did, they must maintain them handsomely, Exod. 21:7-11. Thus did God provide for the comfort and reputation of the daughters of Israel, and HAS TAUGHT HUSBANDS TO GIVE HONOUR TO THEIR WIVES (be their extraction ever so mean) as to the weaker vessels, 1 Pet. 3:7.”

      Exodus 21:7-11 purpose is to impose on masters duties relating to their maid-servants, for the PROTECTION of those maid-servants. The Israelite masters are directed to provide for the maid-servant and not to abuse them as they themselves were abused when they were in Egypt.

      Verse 8 - “...He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.
      Verse 9 - “If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.
      Verse 10 - “If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.
      Verse 11 - “If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.”

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    41. Matthew Henry explains God’s commands in Exodus 21 warns against abusing the servants as the Israelites had themselves been abused when they were servants (emphasis added):

      “He begins with the laws concerning servants, commanding MERCY AND MODERATION towards them. The Israelites had lately been servants themselves; and now that they had become, not only their own masters, but masters of servants too, LEST THEY SHOULD BE ABUSE THEIR SERVANTS, as they themselves had been abused and ruled with rigour by the Egyptian task-masters, PROVISION WAS MADE BY THESE LAWS FOR THE MILD AND GENTLE USAGE OF SERVANTS.”

      Henry also explains in his interpretation that a theme in Exodus 21 is that we should be sensitive to not injure others in the way we have been injured ourselves:

      “Note, If those who have had power over us have been injurious to us this will not in the least excuse us if we be in like manner injurious to those who are under our power, but will rather aggravate our crime, because, in that case, we may the more easily put our souls into their soul’s stead.”

      http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/matthew-henry/Exod.21.1-Exod.21.36

      ---------------------------------------------------

      The commentary by Matthew Henry I depended on shows that the Christian believe that bible is not evil can be supported by a credible and reasonable interpretation. It shows that @willydilly’s interpretation is a skeptical if not cynical view of the bible, which I personally cannot accept. Again, I am not theologically trained in apologetics in the Christian or other religions, but I do consider myself rational and logical enough (having had training in both applied sciences and jurisprudence) to intelligently evaluate commentaries written by theologians. If you are curious and wish to see to further discuss these bible passages, I recommend looking into the useful commentary by Matthew Henry, not as a replacement for reading the bible, but as additional insight, or even better talking to a pastor at a local church. :D

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    42. @ anon

      I can understand the quandary on whether you should stand up for your faith or not. It's true we communicate things even in silence, & not refuting can be = agreement.

      As for the reaction to mint's stance, I think the issue might be that he is coming from a Christian perspective, but his posts were on cultural issues geared towards Asians/ AAs who may not share the same social values.
      ---


      Thanks for the explanation, wilc. :)



      I suppose the thing that sometimes make people wonder is...why is there even a need to discuss kindness to maidservants, or maidservants, in a world overseen by God? You might say, people have a very high expectation of God & what a world presided by him could/ should be.

      It's easy to understand how society can evolve towards a certain structure where these types of arrangements [maidservants, slavery, etc] prevail. Not so easy to comprehend such inequalities [the abuse of w/c you need written laws to repair] in a world ruled by an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God. It's a hurdle for a lot of people.

      The fact that there is a laundry list of do's & don'ts somewhat drives home not only how pedestrian [!] these things were, but the sanction these rules bestow on the practices is hard for people to accept.

      [Couldn't a God have ordered things better?]

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    43. The OT world was just so messed-up it makes you wonder sometimes what kind of God would have allowed these conditions. Why?

      & The matter-of-fact way such a world is recounted in the Bible simply underscore how cheap life was [just...endless carnage, anonymous swathes of the population wiped-out, provisions for practices we would consider beyond the pale, it goes on & on...]

      It's very difficult to understand.

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    44. @ via wong

      I found an article laying out several explanations that have been offered by Christians past and present. After reading it I still have questions relating to suffering and God's plan, but it does provide some explanation, although not completely satisfying to me.

      http://www.patheos.com/Library/Christianity/Beliefs/Suffering-and-the-Problem-of-Evil?offset=1&max=1

      Even though I cannot fully explain it, my faith and critical reflection tells me that I can trust in God's promise that he works for the good.

      "28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28 NIV

      Its an ongoing struggle and hurdle for some Christians as well (including me). I believe JLin also has doubts during his down times when he started in the NBA and without much playing time and being sent to the DLeague etc etc., especially tough for such a competitive person like him.

      I realise his and other people's individual suffering is not on the scale of man-caused global sufferings or natural disasters. However, I believe the same promise from God that He ultimately works for the good nevertheless applies. If not an explanation, it does give me hope in a "messed up world", not only in OT, but also modern day.

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    45. @ willydilly

      To extend an olive branch, I respect that you have doubts. I hope there are no problems between us.

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    46. @ wilc

      The things that happened to Job [bec God wanted to prove a point?!] Incomprehensible...
      ---

      Thx for the link, wilc.

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    47. @wong

      i'd suggest looking at the mosaic laws of OT against the gospel in the NT. in view of that, life is not cheap. it took God's own son's life to save our lives. if it took that much, i can't imagine it being easy for God to see all that was going on in the OT world. keep in mind, also, that the bible is first and foremost a narrative, a story about God and us..

      anyway, too much to compress into a little post.

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    48. oh and one more thing about God ordering things better... keep in mind that according to the bible, it was man that screwed up God's original order and cause all these things to happen. and God's ultimate solution to this problem was sending his son to die..

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    49. But why did it have to get to this point, fighton1999?

      He created us & He must know our weaknesses. No unintended consequence can flow from His omniscience, surely? He must know where man is bound to mess-up.

      Couldn't he have designed man better? or the precession of events, so man could not "screw it up" so badly? or the Law, so it wouldn't have to take the death of His son to fix everything?

      Who crafted this horrible solution? & Why must it be this way?

      [Just wondering, fighton1999...]

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    50. Not Christian-baiting or anything. Anyhow, going off to read the book @Psalm234 recommended.

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    51. great questions wong.. i have no idea why it must be this way but here's my opinion...

      - we can't use our current day, 21 century western ideology to determine how things should be, and we can't rely on our modern day interpretation and idea of "justice" to determine what is just and what is not. how we see things today isn't how it has always been especially compared to OT world, and that's why we have such a hard time understanding mosiac laws.

      - the bible claims that god is just and holy. all just and all holy, and can't tolerate an ounce of unholiness. and frankly, he wouldn't be god is he isn't flawless, right?

      - yes he knows our weakness but he also loves us and gives us free will to choose him. he could very well "make" us choose him like robots but that wouldn't be loving on his part. imo, if we couldn't screw up, he really wouldn't be giving us free will.

      - the bible also claims that he is all loving. he loves us more than anything else and desires us. but because we're sinful we can't have fellowship with him.

      - in the old days, people needed to atone for their sins with sacrifices - such as killing of a lamb. kinda like paying a debt - i got a speeding ticket, so i need to pay it. but god decided to pay for all humanity sins once and for all, with the death of his own perfect son. he acted as judge, executioner, and the person being executed.

      - you can look at this brutality in two ways: 1) dang god is brutal... why would i want to follow a god like this?, 2) dang i'm so sinful that he needed to do that for me, and yet i'm so loved that he is willing to do that for me.

      there's a book by the pastor of redeemer church in nyc called reason for god, written by timothy keller. keller tends to frame his arguments and sermons around the mindset of postmodern, young urban professionals so it speaks to where most of us are at in life. check it out if you can.

      Delete
    52. @ fighton

      "how we see things today isn't how it has always been especially compared to OT world,"
      - The OT world actually makes sense, given human nature. [I just can't find a way to fit a God in there.]

      "he could very well "make" us choose him like robots but that wouldn't be loving on his part."
      - This sounds all too...human. [But I don't think any parent even, would demand this of a child?]
      On the one hand, make the right "choice" or go to hell. [Sounds like "an offer you can't refuse."]
      On another, your physical systems predisposes you to make the wrong choices.
      They are wrong choices bec they go against God's rules [w/c in turn seem to be maladaptive to the physical environment he created?]
      ---


      It just seems like a system where all the parts are going against each other, fighton1999
      ---


      "but because we're sinful we can't have fellowship with him."
      - But He's omnipotent & can supersede any law. Ok, if you have to work with parts with inherent limitations, wouldn't it make sense to rewrite the laws to your system, to compensate?

      "in the old days, people needed to atone for their sins with sacrifices - such as killing of a lamb...with the death of his own perfect son."
      "you can look at this brutality in two ways..."
      - It's horrific.
      I can see how humans, with our limited understanding in the past, can come up with this. I don't understand how a spiritual God would see fit to adopt a crude human convention as a strategy..? Wouldn't a God come up with a more...elegant solution?


      Appreciate the response & suggestion @fighton
      I'll look into the book [found a reader's guide online.]

      Delete
  29. @ mint

    It might be, Christian goodwill is causing you to give the haters more credit than they deserve. :)

    You spoke with them in good faith. You believe there must be a valid reason behind the hate [Surely?]

    will/ wilc/ ztrta/ cara/ KHuang have refuted their excuses [& they are excuses] for hating on JLin. If you relay these to them, will they change their minds? [The answer will depress you.]

    Why would they tell you they hate on him out of fear though?

    He is too good, too much of a threat.

    He changes everything.

    Instead, they hold out the lure of peace. It might make us think, well maybe if we try to do it their way, they might be pacified. Let's just be low-key & not attract any more trouble.

    I hope these haters deserve your faith in them, mint. :)
    ---

    As for people's reactions:

    It might be the way your post was constructed, perhaps you were in a rush or something, bec there was a strong flavor of: Shhh quiet, people will think we're noobs, we fail their criteria for what fans should be like, how embarassing for us.

    Other people shouldn't be dictating how we [Asians] ought to be, wouldn't you agree? How did they get to set the rules?
    ---

    Perhaps in your sincere desire to find a middle ground, to get to peace, you were surrendering way too much though?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sometimes, peace at all costs does costs all.

      Sometimes, if we really want peace, we must be ready to war.

      Delete
    2. I had a physically weak Asian American boy be brought to me by his father for toughening up. He was constantly bullied in school.

      One day three racists came after him and punched him. The boy grabbed the lead aggressor, beat him into the ground, and terrified the other two into fleeing. My guy got a one day detention for defending himself, the racist was suspended for a week.

      After that, HAPPY DAYS for the Asian guy. People called him crazy, but they also respected and befriended him.

      This scenario has played itself out repeatedly with my Asian male students. If you can't administer a righteous beatdown, then you're going to be a target.

      Delete
    3. The irony is people who try to avoid confrontation will prolly see more violence than someone who's willing to stand his ground.

      Bullies prey on the fearful.

      You have to make it unattractive for them to come after you [i.e. you're a doomsday device, & ready to beat the f out of anyone who touches you, even if you have to go down with them.]

      Delete
    4. Nice - that is btw the reason why Cung Le started to learn martial arts. He got beaten up again and again so his mother decided he would have to learn how to defend himself. Problem solved.

      Anyway - aggresion doesnt just come in the way of physical confrontation. It also comes in the way of stereotypes, bashing and what not.

      If someone tells you how to think and how to act, if someone sets up boundaries for you and demand you stay within these boundaries - thats agression as well - and you have to defend yourself. Mint basicly asks asian not to do what JLin has done. He asked people not to cross these boundaries. If JLin had done what mint asked - JLin would not be where he is today.

      JLin is not a negative example. JLin is a possitive example. Why? He has said during an interview that he was taunted during a game. He went to the ref and demanded that the ref would stop the people who were taunting him. The interviewer asked what he had done if it didnt work. JLin said "I probably would have done something stupid". Bravo! Thats the spirit. JLin doesnt just ignore haters - he had to learn to not let them get to him. That makes a differece. Why? Because its not accetable that players go and punch people in the face. That doesnt mean that JLin ist not capable of doing it :)

      I have no problem with religios people as long as they keep religion to themselves and use it for their own inspiration. But - religion alone doesnt make you superior to others. If a person uses religion to make claims - uses religion to gain power over you (just check the news and see what religon can lead to) or tell you how to think and how to act - its fraud.

      Delete
    5. I just do whatever I need to, within legal boundaries.

      I used to care what people thought, far more than any of you here. Then I realized that I was only hurting myself. Now I just lay waste to stereotypes and the people that use them against me.

      The best lesson I ever learned from my college Physical Chemistry class was how to go after two (actually three) toughs that had gotten into my personal belongings to write racial slurs. The teacher was enraged that I dared to physically challenge the two much larger guys right there in class, and I didn't care. I didn't learn a thing in Physical Chemistry, but I got respect from those three guys that backed right down and even became my friends! Best college lesson I ever learned!

      Delete
    6. LOL! I had similar experiences.

      Delete
    7. @ will

      "JLin doesnt just ignore haters - he had to learn to not let them get to him. That makes a differece. Why? Because its not accetable that players go and punch people in the face. That doesnt mean that JLin ist not capable of doing it."

      - He would have decked that guy, absolutely. [It must have taken a massive amount of self-control, considering how low his frustration tolerance was.]

      Delete
    8. Lin hasn't needed to punch out anybody yet.

      He punks people by making the NBA, having historic start, and earning $25 million!

      Besides, Lin doesn't need to punch anybody in today's NBA. He can retaliate in all sorts of legal ways.

      Delete
    9. Lin doesn't need to punch anybody in today's NBA. He can retaliate in all sorts of legal ways.
      -this, i agree very much...jlin knows how to retaliate legally and he has been doing this since his break out game vs nets...it's so subtle that you wld really not notice it, i dont know if he does this unconsciously ^^
      but what is more great about jlin is that he knows how to reward his team mates for their hard work/hustle...sometimes he immediately creates a play/sometimes the next play probably depending on the defense but definitely he will reward that team mate for his effort

      Delete
    10. He doesn't need to punch someone out.

      But could he? [Is he capable of it?]

      Absolutely.

      There are people who doubt his "guts," who believe he doesn't have it in him to fight back.

      He CHOOSES to not engage in physical violence. There's a difference.

      Delete
    11. I want Jeremy Lin to become a BULLY who goes after people in completely legal ways.

      Sugar Ray Richardson (who I call the "1980s Jeremy Lin") would go after guys legally. He'd trash talk them, physically intimidate them, and make astonishing basketball plays on terrified opponents. Lin MUST become that kind of player if he wants to win in the NBA.

      Being a bully on the NBA court is completely different from being a bully in real life. This is the NBA where guys either bully people or be bullied!

      Delete
  30. Mint, I respect your viewpoints; just do what you think you should do. But at the same time, do realize that everyone has a slightly different way of dealing with what they perceive is their situation. We can't all be super patient as you. I no longer see whatever course you choose as the wiser or better one but just a different course which might be just as effective.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks ! I wasnt forcing anyone to use my approach but rather, to let them know that there was an alternative approach. :)

      Delete
    2. I do believe you have the best of intentions. :)

      But be careful with taking haters at face-value though.

      Exhorting JLin fans to stop provoking hate [victim-blaming] is taking on their justifications, whether consciously or not.

      Delete
    3. Thanks for your understanding :) Really appreciate it

      Delete
    4. Not to flog a dead horse [just clarifying what I meant]:
      Adopting a hater's frames [in the hopes of peace] should never be an alternative approach. Never.



      [I think you meant being patient though, w/c is a good thing.]

      Delete
    5. Lol, it's been bothering me.

      [So, even if everyone is, I'm sure, aware of this] I just have to state, No one should ever agree to be shamed into silence.

      There's a reason a tyrant's 1st order of affairs is:

      - To curtail freedom of speech/ expression [& access to information.]
      - To curtail freedom of assembly.


      Again, buying into a hater's narrative [in exchange for peace] should never be seen as a viable option [alternative approach.]

      Delete
  31. Replies
    1. Haha, I'm fine. I get into what I think are deep dive discussions with my brother all the time on various topics. People see them as heated discussions and even angry arguments. I don't see it quite that way and certainly confrontational dialogue does not generally make me feel uncomfortable. Thanks for the concern anyways :D

      Delete
    2. That is good to hear . Have a great week ahead! GOD bless:)

      Delete
  32. Think it might interest some people seeing how another PG trains. Here's a video of Goran Dragic's training this summer. There are 3 other ones, but you should be able to see the other links from this link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov6Rv302Vwg&list=UU8C8WuWSsFjWFaTHcUQeQxA&index=16&feature=plcp

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    Replies
    1. If I was a Phoneix fan, I would be very wary of Dragic's game. He's historically an inconsistent player. He also doesn't have elite athleticism and quickness to dominate games and make teammates better like an elite PG. Going to games to watch Nash down to Dragic must be a downgrade and potentially a big dissappointment.

      Delete
    2. Yeah, Cara.

      I'm from Phoenix. I'm not optimistic about the Suns at all, especially since now Goran Dragic is the best player on the Suns!

      The Suns got a guy who I feel is a poster child for the stupidity of NBA scouts in overlooking Jeremy Lin. Wes Johnson was picked #4 overall in 2010, the same year Lin went undrafted.

      Now that NBA games have been actually played, it's Jeremy Lin that has performed like the best player in the entire 2010 class and Wes Johnson who has played like an undrafted twice waived player.

      Wes Johnson at #4 over Jeremy Lin at #60+? ASIAN FAIL!!!

      Delete
    3. I was a Phoenix Suns fan before the owner started selling draft picks like peanuts. I also saw Dragic's inconsistency when he was the understudy for Steve Nash. I still remember one 2010 playoff game against the Spurs when he went MJ to score 23 points in the 4Q to win the game. He had all the abilities to be unstoppable scorer but he just couldn't sustain it to be a consistent backup PG behind Nash. I always wonder if it was just a mental block or something more with him.

      I'm glad he did well in Houston but I don't know if he has the mental strength to be a consistent PG starter. Perhaps he has figured it out now so we'll see.

      Even Jeremy Lin said he has a similar game with Goran so there are definitely many similarities in PG/SG skills but the biggest gap are the self-confidence and consistency.

      And I just heard Channing Frye will be out of the season with enlarged heart so it can't be good for Phoenix Suns with one less weapon to stretch the floor.

      Delete
    4. during Lin's rookie year in GS, some of us received serious flack for comparing him to Ellis and even Dragic.

      Delete
    5. When Lin compared his game to Dragic before the draft, he also received flack and people were laughing at him to compare himself to a mediocre "nba benchwarmer". And nobody complained how Phoenix got robbed when they traded a 1st round pick and Dragic for Aaron Brooks. Now all those same people are acting like they know all along Dragic was good. Also, at least Houston just released Lin 1st time around and gave up nothing. Phoenix gave up a 1st round pick to get rid of Dragic and signed him back to an enormous contract. Yet almost no one ripped this Phoenix organization. Lol.

      Delete
    6. Even though I am from Phoenix, I have never truly been a Suns fan to the point where I haven't even attended a single game!

      I always disagreed with Jerry Colangelo's small ball mentality. He always thought that the game should be won with smaller players, which has spilled over into FIBA where the American team has nearly been beaten a few times by bigger international teams. The policy of running an undersized team is the main reason the Suns never came close to winning the championship, even when Charles Barkley was in town.

      I'm also sick of all the draft pick dumping. The Suns do not believe in their young talent, plus they also draft the wrong talent. They did better when they had Al Bianchi as a scout, and he's the big reason the Suns got good in the Steve Nash era. After all, Bianchi was Dr J's and George Gervin's first head coach and also rebuilt the Knicks in the short lived Mark Jackson era.

      In the Lon Babby era, the emphasis on getting guys for contractual as opposed to basketball reasons has really messed up the Suns. Moves are made either to dump contracts or to get Babby's ex clients onto the team. Not surprisingly, the Suns have been a lottery team that continues to draft poorly.

      I didn't like the Markieff Morris pick last year, and I DESPISE the Kendall Marshall pick. I've written here before that I believe that Kendall Marshall is going to struggle in the NBA and eventually wash out of the league, as he is so slow and unathletic and uncreative. This year, the Suns are going to find out that Morris is not the player that they think he is.

      I am OK with the Dragic signing, though I feel that he will struggle more than people realize. I'm mildly unhappy with the Michael Beasley signing because he's simply overrated, and I'm VERY unhappy with the Wes Johnson signing. The Suns also overpaid for Shannon Brown and have a nonplayer in Sebastian Telfair who has no NBA skills whatsoever.

      I am from Phx, but I am NOT a Suns fan. But I might try to score tickets to the Suns Houston game.

      Delete
    7. @Khuang, I am also thinking to bring my family to the 3/9 Suns-Rockets game. I checked online but the 2013 tickets are not available yet. Maybe we can meet up over there :D

      Without Steve Nash, the Suns simply doesn't have any identity. He simply makes all the other players much better playing Nash ball. Their best hope now is for Dragic, Gortat and Scola to develop a nice chemistry and hope for Beasley to perform like a #2 pick consistently. Too bad they missed Frye as a 3-PT threat to spread the floor. But it still feels like they miss a true leader in the team. I had hoped someone in the Suns would have gotten to JLin bidding but I don't think they ever had the foresight or advanced stats like Houston to see Jeremy as a future All-Star to build upon. I'm so glad Jeremy has Les and Morey as owner and GM who believed in him. They will be rewarded for years to come!

      BTW I watched a few of your musical performance and I have to say you are absolutely one super-talented artist :D I don't know how you got those fingers moving that fast.

      Delete
    8. Thanks, psalm234.

      I'll see if I can play the Star Spangled Banner on the violin for the Lin game when the Rockets come to Phoenix. I'll probably root for both teams, as I don't have team preferences in the NBA.

      Offensively I expect the Suns to be below average, with Scola being the main frontcourt scorer. Defensively the Suns are in major trouble, especially if Scola and Beasley and Johnson all play.

      I actually believe that Lin's Rockets may end up being better than Dragic's Suns. The Rockets have 3 guys in Lin, Martin, and likely Lamb that can athletically score against any kind of defense where the Rockets have only Beasley that can get hot like that. Plus, the Rockets likely will be vastly superior defensively because they have superior athletes AND superior depth.

      I don't see the Suns sneaking up on anyone except their 2013 lottery pick, but the Rockets are an intriguing team that might surprise even me. When you have a guy like Lin that is dominant on both ends of the NBA court, there's no telling how good his team can become.

      Delete
    9. It'll be great if you can play the national anthem on either games (March or April), Khuang!

      Talent-wise, the Rockets has a slight edge but the Suns has more veterans and experience. I suspect the Rockets will have more team chemistry with so many young guys and the desire to prove themselves. I'm with you here that Jeremy can be dominant on both ends on the floor and more importantly elevate the play of his teammates like he did during the Linsanity 7-game winning streak. If he can make Tyson found his offensive game, created openings for Novak, and still scored a bunch within the flow of the game, I don't see why he can't do the same in Houston with more shooters.

      Delete
  33. This is for wilc, willydilly and others who engaged in a great discussion about Biblical accuracy.

    If you like to read a detective story, there is a great book "Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel (ex-Chicago Tribune investigative journalist and an ex-atheist) that addresses these questions using his investigative skills. I found them to be very helpful in enriching my faith and providing answers to some of my questions.

    http://www.amazon.com/Case-Faith-Journalist-Investigates-Christianity/dp/0310234697
    Award-winning reporter and author Lee Strobel (The Case for Christ) once again uses his investigative skills to address the primary objections to Christianity. As a former atheist, Strobel understands the rational resistance to faith. He even names the eight most convincing arguments against Christian faith:
    1) If there's a loving God, why does this pain-wracked world groan under so much suffering and evil?
    2) If the miracles of God contradict science, then how can any rational person believe that they're true?
    3) If God is morally pure, how can he sanction the slaughter of innocent children as the Old Testament says he did?
    4) If God cares about the people he created, how could he consign so many of them to an eternity of torture in hell just because they didn't believe the right things about him?
    5) If Jesus is the only way to heaven, then what about the millions of people who have never heard of him?
    6) If God really created the universe, why does the evidence of science compel so many to conclude that the unguided process of evolution accounts for life?
    7) If God is the ultimate overseer of the church, why has it been rife with hypocrisy and brutality throughout the ages?
    8) If I'm still plagued by doubts, then is it still possible to be a Christian?

    As a Christian, I always believe God wants his children to question and deepen our faith on why we believe what we believe so we can always be ready to give an explanation to anyone whos asks us for a reason for our hope. (1 Peter 3:15)

    I definitely do not want to resurrect the discussion because it won't be fair to other JLin fans here :) but I thought I'll share something with my fellow JLin fans that has been useful for me personally and to teach Sunday School. Now if we want to discuss if God really took over JLin's body during his 3-pointer at Toronto, that might be interesting :D

    Have a blessed week everyone!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks @ Psalm234.
      I got it, will read it.

      Delete
    2. @Psalm234 Thank you for the recommendation. Seem like a very helpful read.

      Discussing whether God controlled JLin's movements would be very interesting indeed. How do we indeed explain miracles and even identify instances of miracle from mere coincidences? So many things that go on in miracles go against natural laws and accepted logic.

      Delete
    3. Do I think JLin's faith played an important role in the Linsanity? Of course, but I tend to think JLin's faith in Christianity and the way JLin acted upon his beliefs are what made the difference. This still does not prove or disprove the existence of anything. I have a suspicion that if there is a God (or god), it will be different from anything we imagine in our human brains or what any book says. It's a pity that Jesus did not write down anything on his own. Either he was too busy to write down anything, or everything he wrote were destroyed or cannot be found, or he was a skilled orator but could not write well. I say this believing 99% that there was a historical person named Jesus Christ who said and acted the way Bible describes. However, I cannot fault the way Jewish leaders reacted to Jesus, because if someone like Jesus appears today, most Christian leaders would also disbelieve him for various reasons. All I know is that the matter of faith is not very easy and can be a very contentious topic.

      Delete
    4. @eb5attorney,

      You are 100% correct in stating "JLin's faith in Christianity and the way JLin acted upon his beliefs are what made the difference ". All Christians and non-Christians can witness how JLin's faith actually made a difference in serving other people's needs and not for his own fame and success. And that's what attracted many people to him and it certainly reminds people that he tries to do the same thing Jesus Christ did over 2000 years ago to minister to the poor and needy. Many Christian athletes pray or point to the sky to give credit to God on the field/court but they don't go above and beyond to do the ministry to care for others as an extension of their personal faith.

      But does this prove or disprove the existence of God or Jesus Christ's spirit in Jeremy's life? Well, a big yes for Jeremy and a big maybe for other people. In his testimony, Jeremy already listed 13 miracles that had to happen for Linsanity so he clearly has put some serious thought to look back and personally feel the hands of God throughout the Linsanity run. Other people might credit Linsanity to karma for doing good things in his life but one thing for sure people cannot discredit how Jeremy felt the presence of God guiding the Linsanity phenomenon. So other people watching from the outside can only say maybe God orchestrated it with Jeremy's cooperation (he's got a free will after all) or it's just a coincidence for those 13 'miracles' to happen one after another.

      Fortunately, we all get to watch what happens next in Houston. Personally, I think God is not done yet with his big plan for Jeremy. It may or may not translate to an NBA championship one day but that's not what's important for God and Jeremy according to his testimony.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuQQvxmASzE#t=33m57s
      "The thing that I learned through Linsanity is that there's nothing in this world that can offer that will provide me with true joy, fulfillment and satisfaction. There is only thing that can truly and eternally satisfy you … that's Jesus Christ"

      You've got to understand where he's coming from to want to tell other people about what Jesus has done for him. When he was down and depressed not playing in GS, traded away from Houston and about to get fired from NY, it was God's words and Jesus' words through his prayers that got him through a tough time. He simply wants to share with other people what God has done for him.

      Before I became Christian, it was hard for me to understand what it actually feels like by having personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It sounds weird and unnatural to have 'relationship' with someone who lived 2000 years ago. But later on, things just happened through prayers and Bible words became alive that made me feel that maybe Jesus is still alive in spirit and God is real. What also strengthened me in my faith is hearing how other Christians like Jeremy also shared the same joy, peace to live through all the hardship of living in the world.

      Again, it is not my intention to 'convert' others to become Christians. Do I want others to feel the peace and joy that Jeremy also talked about? You bet. But if others are not open to it, that's okay. Christians are only supposed to share the good news, not to force it to others as many have misunderstood.

      Faith can definitely be a contentious issue. It's always important to focus on the common ground and less of the differences among people of different faith or opinions. In this case, as JLin fans we all want him to succeed in Houston whether he can be a good role model for kids, Asian-American, Christians, non-Christians, people who are discriminated , etc. I truly enjoy and appreciate the thoughtful posts that people post here, definitely a fresh breath of air compared to other newsgroups.

      Go JLin!

      Delete
    5. sorry, my posts tend to be a bit long :D I tried to break it down so it's easier to read.

      Delete
    6. thanks Psalm 234! I borrowed that book once but didn't manage to finish reading it. It's a reminder for me to take it up again :)

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