For 2011-2012 and 2012-2013:
Players that I feel Jeremy is already better than (salaries from Hoopshype.com):
Jarrett Jack - $5,220,000 $5,580,000
Kyle Lowry - $5,750,000 $5,750,000
Jameer Nelson - $7,303,555 $7,888,888
Raymond Felton - $7,500,000
Andre Miller - $7,807,728
Kirk Hinrich - $8,000,000
Devin Harris - $9,319,000 $8,500,000
Players that Jeremy is closing in on and I expect him to playing at their level next season:
Rajon Rondo - $10,000,000 $11,000,000
Tony Parker - $12,500,000 $12,500,000
Deron Williams - $16,359,805 $17,779,457
Looking at these salaries, Jeremy's market value salary should be at minimum 8-10 million to start. However, he can only get the mid-level for his first two years at around 5 million. This is why he'll most likely receive a huge backloaded offer that the Knicks will be forced to match. If there is any possible way, I'd love to see him sign a one year deal which enables Jeremy to make the most money over 4 years and gives him an out if Melo/Woody don't buy in to Linsanity 2.0.
I think Jeremy will think hard and wise about signing on the noted line; no matter what Woods said during the radio interview yesterday: "he will be our starting PG" and contradicting himself with the statement he made previously "yet to be seen".
ReplyDeleteAs a Knicks fan, Jeremy'fan plus Asian, I have a natural inborn trusting nature of what Woods can deliver if Jeremy return to KNICKS. And from all the blogs and comment either by sport reporters or even fans all over, majority of the KNICKS fans want Jeremy back but for most Asian fans, we want Jeremy to sign on to a team that will respect, develop and utilise his skills to the fullest.
I think Jeremy will think hard and wise about signing on the noted line; no matter what Woods said during the radio interview yesterday: "he will be our starting PG" and contradicting himself with the statement he made previously "yet to be seen".
ReplyDeleteAs a Knicks fan, Jeremy'fan plus Asian, I have a natural inborn trusting nature of what Woods can deliver if Jeremy return to KNICKS. And from all the blogs and comment either by sport reporters or even fans all over, majority of the KNICKS fans want Jeremy back but for most Asian fans, we want Jeremy to sign on to a team that will respect, develop and utilise his skills to the fullest.
"I'd love to see him sign a one year deal which enables Jeremy to make the most money over 4 years and gives him an out if Melo/Woody don't buy in to Linsanity 2.0."
ReplyDeleteAmen to that. Even with Woodson backtracking (yet again) and naming Lin his starting PG "without question," Jeremy still needs to be cautious.
That said, I liked the way Woodson used Jeremy role against the Pacers (on St. Patty's day) and the Sixers (where he took over in the 4th quarter). if the Woodson continues to coach like that, I'm okay with Jeremy signing a back-loaded four-year contract.
I'd like to see Jeremy Lin sign a huge backloaded contract.
ReplyDeleteWeird things happen in the NBA. Injuries, coaching changes, blockbuster trades, team mutinies - those are some of the myriad basketball things that can happen to any NBA player.
Unlike any other player in the NBA, Jeremy Lin is a star who still has to prove his stardom. Having that backloaded guaranteed contract pays him good value for an NBA starting PG while giving him the career stability he desperately needs. Then when he gets his new contract, it may be even bigger.
Were Lin a lottery pick who had come out early and was celebrated the same as any other player of any other color, I'd advise him to take a chance with a one year contract. But given the leaguewide perception that he doesn't belong in the NBA, Jeremy Lin needs to be locked down if only to prevent some prejudiced team official from undervaluing him out of the league entirely.
Totally agree. Players w big contracts receive more opportunity to play because management wants their return on investment. Big contract players also allow more failures because no GM want to have a "bad contract" on their record. So they will give these big money players chance after chance.
DeleteI think his decisions should be about more than just money. Does he fit into the team and the coach's system ? Is he in a position to win in the playoffs ? Maybe even a championship ...
ReplyDeleteNBA players like Tim Duncan, Dwayne Wade, Rip Hamilton are getting paid LESS than what they should because they know that they are in a position to win with that team. They can either go for the money, but money doesn't buy a championship contender.
On another note, I think Lin needs to fire his agent and sign with a bigger agency, like CAA (Creative Artists Agency) who deal with superstar athletes, actors, models, singers, etc. Roger Montgomery has never represented a superstar before, his other basketball clients playing in Europe or NBA veteran minimum players like Maurice Evans.
Jeremy needs an experienced sports agent to represent him, get the best contract possible, and maximize his endorsements and marketability.
On the issue of money, ABC baller, you're right but JLin should use money as an excuse and get out of NY where Carmelo is just a looser. Can't win with his selfishness and stupidity, unless NY realizes that and trade the looser.
DeleteOn the agent issue, I disagree. Roger Montgomery was the only agent willing to take a chance on JLin when he was a nobody so he should be rewarded for at least one big contract. If he proved to be not so good agent over the next couple of years, then let him go but at least reward him for his initial risk. That's just loyalty and appropriate.
Speaking of Rondo, he is a triple double machine and has been key to the Celtics nearly on the verge of upsetting the Miami Heat.
ReplyDeleteWith his performance in the playoffs, I think Rondo has come out as among the very elite point guards in the NBA.
What do you all think of Rondo and how JLin compares to him?
Without Chris Bosh, the Heat are nowhere as strong as they usually are. So I definitely wouldn't call the Celtics beating the Heat an "upset".
DeleteAlso, it is a wise gameplan to let Rondo shoot instead of the 3 Hall of Famers who are legendary shotmakers.
The Celtics have been injury ridden all season. However, the 3 Hall of Famers are starting to hit their stride.
Rondo is a terrific player on this particular Celtics team. But I don't think he would produce as much for a team with less talent.
Jeremy Lin, on the other hand, will produce no matter what team he's playing on. I consider him an INCOMPARABLY better talent than Rajon Rondo, though Rondo is playing his specific role extremely well.
I posted saying pretty much what you are saying, that I believe Rondo is an elite PG even though his shooting and finishing could be better, but apparently, many people seem to disagree. I do not expect JLin to play at an elite level next year, because to reach this very high level, you need substantial playoff experience. Honestly, I would be happy if JLin's next year-end stats show him to be near top 10. Frankly, I think the regular season stats do not matter all that much. To be considered a real star, you have to shine when the opposing players are trying their very best to beat you and the pressure is very high.
ReplyDeleteYeah, Rondo's outside shooting is weak.
DeleteJLin is possibly better than him in that department and perhaps better as a scorer in general.
But Rondo puts up some monster all-round games with triple doubles that are sometimes ridiculous.
I think your views are objective and accurate -- that's what I am saying. I agree with you. If I were another player, I would love to play with Rondo, in some sense, more than JLin -- and please this is not a knock on JLin at all. Rondo looks to pass first and then shoot. And I disagree strongly that Rondo cannot create his own shots; Rondo just doesn't try to shoot that much, unless he feels he has to.
DeleteCompared to Chris Paul, Rondo knows when to slow down to accomodate other players. Some PGs are so quick that other players in his team cannot keep up and mesh well. I noticed that Rondo knows hos to make others play well and knows how to slow down and freeze other players -- this is something you cannot teach. Even if Rondo scored zero point, I believe he has the ability to help his team win the game.
DeleteUnlike Rondo who is the last scoring option on the court, Chris Paul is the first option because he doesn't play alongside 3 Hall of Famers. So he has to attack otherwise nothing happens for his team.
DeleteRondo can sit back, shoot terribly, and still win the games because the Celtics don't need him to score.
Rondo is one of those rare players who is super athletic ... yet has a high basketball IQ and court vision. He attacks the boards and grabs rebounds, gets steals, drives the lane ... but he's also a smart player who doesn't take bad shots, and sets up his teammates.
DeleteRondo is player that I wish Jeremy can be like someday.
He makes good use of screen and roll, and uses the 2 post players, Garnett and Bass, who can hit mid range jumpers. This helps spread the floor for the Celtics.
In a way Rondo was also an underdog story. He went to Oak Hill Academy, played 2 years for Kentucky. He was drafted 21st by Phoenix, and traded to Boston for cash. The Suns didn't see any potential in him, not even as a backup for Nash. His rookie year was average at best, but his 2nd season was a breakout, he was the point guard who beat the Lakers in the 2009 Finals.
Saying that Rondo is better than Lin is like saying Robert Horry is better than Charles Barkley.
DeleteIt must be said once and for all:
DeleteI like Rondo a lot, but he's not elite like CP3. The reason Rondo gets SO MANY rebounds and assists because he's surrounded by jump shooters. Three of which -- Pierce, Allen and Garnett -- are freakin' Hall of Famers!! It's easy to rack up 15 assists when most of them are on 20-foot jumpers and contested 3-pointers, lol. Hard to make turnovers, too, because you seldom have to pass into traffic...just kick out to your HOF shooters.
And when they miss those shots? They result in LONG rebounds...which make it easy for guards to retrieve. Don't get me wrong, he's still a great rebounding guard. But no more than Kyle Lowry or Jeremy Lin. Rondo's handle is unreal, though, no doubt. Jeremy will never match him, there. Of course, Rondo's steals were significantly down this year...
It must be said once and for all:
DeleteI like Rondo a lot, but he's not elite like CP3. The reason Rondo gets SO MANY rebounds and assists because he's surrounded by jump shooters. Three of which -- Pierce, Allen and Garnett -- are freakin' Hall of Famers!! It's easy to rack up 15 assists when most of them are on 20-foot jumpers and contested 3-pointers, lol. Hard to make turnovers, too, because you seldom have to pass into traffic...just kick out to your HOF shooters.
And when they miss those shots? They result in LONG rebounds...which make it easy for guards to retrieve. Don't get me wrong, he's still a great rebounding guard. But no more than Kyle Lowry or Jeremy Lin. Rondo's handle is unreal, though, no doubt. Jeremy will never match him, there. Of course, Rondo's steals were significantly down this year...
You wanna talk stats? Fine, let's pick the one stat which accounts for all measurables: PER. Rondo's PER = 17.6. Lin's PER = 20.0. And that's despite the "growing pains" of being a virtual rookie. Wait till Jeremy gets more experience and a training camp/preseason to gel with Melo and Amare.
I read all your posts, and I have to say my opinion is very similar to lxy and ABC Baller. As to Parker being not the same without Duncan, you have to remember Duncan is in a big decline. I would actually argue the opposite, that Parker will probably be more productive with another player than Duncan. The bottom line is there always be excuses. As to PER, I will suspend my judgment on that one when JLin delivers the same stats after one full year of playing and also during the playoffs. I have seen Parker and Rondo play during intense playoff games when it really counts. That's why Durant should be the MVP hands down. Russell and Harden would not be as effective without Durant's constant threats. His shots float softly in the air, and he is a poetry in motion.
DeleteAnyway, I am glad at least two people (lxy and ABC Baller) agree with me on Rondo. I will say this for JLin: he can finish his shots. But he has to put some fakes on his passes and look other direction and put some freeze on opponents like Rondo. My concern is that JLin will not fit into the pure PG role; he's really a 0.5 PG and 0.5 SG, but even his mid range jump shots are not there yet and his ball handling is not at an elite level yet, so I don't know if he will be either Parker type (shoot first and pass second) or Rondo (pass first and shoot when he has to) type. Anyway, I will never judge a player until I see him play tough playoff games.
Sure!
DeleteSurround Lin with guys that make cuts and also can score on their own. Whoops, the Knicks have no players like that. But the Celtics have three of them as do the Spurs.
If you put Parker or Rondo or Westbrook on the Knicks in Lin's place, suddenly they'd see double teams and rough physical defense for the first time in their entire careers. Those guys would go crazy trying to pass through the double teams to teammates that aren't always where they should be. And in Woodson's iso-ball scheme, let's see what happens to their numbers when they no longer have the ball in their hands.
I know that Jeremy Lin will RAISE his game in the playoffs. That has been his history, so I see no reason to predict otherwise.
Not only will I defend Jeremy Lin on a Jeremy Lin fansite, I will also defend Duncan who I still think is the best player in the entire NBA.
DeleteDuncan looks slower and has played less minutes this season, but his on court per minute production is the same it has always been.
The Spurs were an incredible team this season despite only having one player other than Duncan that would start for another NBA team in Tony Parker. Ginobili is old and injured, and the rest of the team other than Splitter and Leonard are rejects. The Spurs are not like the vastly more talented Thunder who endured a lot of losing in order to surround Kevin Durant with players that could easily start for most teams in the NBA.
I regard the Spurs as a one man team revolving around Duncan. Remove Duncan and the Spurs would be one of the worst teams in basketball. That's why the Spurs better get Duncan signed this summer, as he's unrestricted.
Rondo is the next Kidd. Harden is the next Ginobili. Durant is the next Nowitzki.
DeleteIf I were Lin, I would not let my NBA salary be a factor in where I play next year. I would want to go where I am the best fit. At this point, Lin's not even a lock to be the starting PG for the Knicks next year, the Knicks are probably looking for a veteran star PG like Nash.
ReplyDeleteKnicks can't afford Nash
DeleteIf Nash is set on being a Knick and willing to take a pay cut to do so, the Knicks likely won't be able to afford Nash and Lin. If Lin leaves the Knicks, he'll be a starting PG somewhere else.
DeleteTony Parker also proved himself to be an elite PG during the playoffs. Spurs are classy all across.
ReplyDeleteYes, Parker is a very good shoot first PG when playing off of the ageless Tim Duncan.
DeleteHowever, take Parker away from Duncan and he just isn't "Parker" anymore.
There are only a select handful of NBA pgs who can thrive in any situation. Parker is not one of them, Jeremy Lin is.
By the way, the Spurs have gotten away from having the kind of overwhelming interior size they used to have in their championship runs. They need to sign another 7 footer to help Tim Duncan inside.
More glaring is the loss of Bruce Bowen. While I though Bruce Bowen was a DIRTY ref assisted fouler who seldom made clean basketball plays, his so called "defensive" reputation allowed him to grab and bump and even kick offensive players out of their game. With Bowen getting away with uncalled hacks and cheap shots, the Thunder's young stars would not have been able to go off against the Spurs.
I don't agree with saying that Parker is very good only because he plays with Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan is getting slower and not as effective. If Tim Duncan played in another team, he would not be as effective either. I knew Durant and LeBron were great players, but I never realized how good Rondo and Parker were until I saw them play in playoffs. Even Westbrook, who is not used to giving a praise, said that Parker is a great Guard.
DeleteI do not see JLin as being able to thrive in "any situation". However, let's wait one year and see, rather than saying this or that at this time. To me , this year, JLin proved he can play as a starter in NBA, but I would like to see one more year and hopefully playoff playing before I make a judgment. I am hopeful but not convinced to bet my house.
Well, you haven't been seeing Lin thrive in ANY situation despite his historic start.
DeleteTim Duncan just dropped 25 and 13. His Spurs wrecked the NBA during the regular season. He had a good series against the Thunder. If that's not effective, then I'm OK with that.
Also, how much do I think JLin is worth to a team? Without his marketing appeal, I would say $6 to $7 Million USD. If he can play at the similar level after one full year, I would say $8 to $10 Mill USD. No question in my mind that Rondo is underpaid compared to D. Williams. I actually see JLin fit very well with OKC Thunder if Thunder ever trades Russell. JLin has to go to a fast paced team for his potential to come out.
ReplyDeleteAre you asking about Lin's salary cap value or his true value?
DeleteSalary cap wise, Lin would be adequately priced at the backloaded contract that he deserves. Yes, he'd a $13 million man at the worst based on individual and team production.
Now endorsements? Lin is the most economically valuable player in the entire NBA. I would conservatively place his dollar value to the 2012 Knicks at about $20 million for the 2011-2012 season alone. That's including the Cablevision deal and all that.
Should Lin continue his elite level of play, I would imagine that his true franchise value would likely be over $50 million per season provided that his team was smart enough to take advantage of Lin's limitless marketing value.
His true value would be off the chart. I am talking about just his salary amount alone IF he were any other player who cannot generate as much revenue. Unlike many posters here, I do not think he will be playing all that well next year if he stays with the Knicks. Therefore, assuming he stays with the Knicks, I am predicting that his stats will be worse than the stats he produced in his 30 or so games this year before his injury. I consider Knicks to be a worse and less talented version of Miami Heat. It might be unfair, but you can't use playing in Knicks as an excuse for your stats, so my salary amount for JLin is based on what he will do for Knicks.
DeleteIt's utterly ridiculous that you think Lin next year is going to play worse than Lin this year.
DeleteLin next year will have a guaranteed contract, Select team experience, a starting guarantee, real NBA experience, a healthy summer, training camp, and a noncompressed schedule. Lin had none of those things in this waiver wire seadon and STILL he had a historic start better than anybody in modern NBA history. He cannot possibly regress the way you claim he inevitably will!
I can easiky see Lin improving his 2012 numbers. Less TOs, better fg%, better team stats, more wins. Lin will likely play like an All Star again next year, but better than this year.
Lin played great under Woodson with one leg. Should the Knicks keep Lin, he'll be ready to play for Woodson again but with TWO legs.
It's being underestimated how well Anthony and Lin can complement each other. Anthony can be flaky, passive-aggressive, and pudgy, but there's nothing missing in his skillset. A Chandler-Anthony-Lin-shooter-role player combo works. The concern should be about Stoudamire as the odd-fitting piece.
DeleteMichelle Wong makes good points about returning to Knicks and I agree with everything she said. I think Jeremy situation in New York not good. When he was focal point with Chandler, Fields, Shumpert and Novak he was a star...as soon as Amare and Melo came back they take over and knicks go back to average team with bunch of selfish players...I think Jeremy should go somewhere else where he can develop his game and play to his scoring strengths like a toronto. Interesting how agent is not positive about signing with New York..read between lines there....Also, Woodson doesn't believe in Lin and never will....Jeremy would make mistake playing for Woodson. Knicks going no where but down with drama with team they have...too selfish and not a team.
ReplyDeleteMike Nice, doesn't Lin HAVE to return to the Knicks if they match any outside contract offers from other teams?
Deleteif some team backloads a big contract they may not match and especially if Lin says he doesn't want to play for woodson with anthony and stoudamire
DeleteBut what if the Knicks match? Doesn't Lin have to play for them?
Delete@Khuang yeah he would have to play for knicks if they match but they may not if it's too much money and if he says (off record or in private) that he doesn't want to play for woodson and/or anthony/stoudemire.
DeleteMike Nice:
DeleteAnother hypocrite. Amare and Melo are "selfish" for wanting to score, but it is OK to want Lin to score? Also, news flash: Melo and Amare are SUPPOSED TO SCORE. Lin is a POINT GUARD. He is SUPPOSED TO PASS.
Unlike you guys, I am confident in Lin's abilities. I believe that he is good enough to coexist on a team with two all-stars plus a really promising talent like Shumpert. You guys want Lin to go to a situation where he is playing with a bunch of lesser players and doesn't have to compete with the best for the appropriate role on a contending team.
The folks on here proclaiming Lin to be better than Rajon Rondo ... well if Rondo can be on a team with "3 Hall of Famers" and respond by leading the NBA in assists, Lin ought to be able to do even more, since A) Lin would be part of the "big 3" where Rondo isn't and B) Stoudemire and Anthony aren't over the hill like Garnett, Pierce and Allen are.
And by the way ... when Lin, Stoudemire, and Melo all played together with Woodson as coach, they were burning up the NBA. Had Lin never gotten hurt, the Knicks would have gotten a better seed, and would likely be in the conference finals right now. Great way to contrive your own version of "history."
DeleteStop flaming people because they don't agree with your fortunetelling, unknown.
DeleteLin needs to play one full healthy season, then his value will skyrocketed. Right now he's not getting the pay he deserves because other teams think he's injury prone or a flash in the pan. Sign a one year contract, and play one full good season. he will be the most in demand free agent on the market. Look what one good year did for Kevin Love, David Lee, Elton Brand.....
ReplyDeleteHere is how the NBA works:
DeleteJeremy Lin plays 25 games and has a historic start. Because he's Asian, NBA scouts think that he's just a D league player.
Kyrie Irving plays 10 NCAA games for Duke and gets picked #1. Jeremy Lin comes in and plays him evenly while Lin's Knicks beat Irving's Cavs.
Since Jeremy Lin beat Irving in a head to head matchup and had a far more profound NBA impact, Irving is the better player especially since undrafted Lin PUNKED the #1 overall pick.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Deletetake 2: Like other 1-and-dones, Kyrie Irving was drafted chiefly off his prep scouting reports, not his college record. Also like other 1-and-dones, his college games chiefly served as a check for his prep scouting reports - Irving played just enough for Duke to serve that purpose. Establishing an impressively deep, multi-year college record is necessary for players like Lin who don't enter college as presumptive lottery picks.
DeleteI thought Irving would be another overhyped Duke bust. Nope. Kid's legit. Lin played well against the Cavs, but Irving looked against Lin and the Knicks, too.
... Irving looked GOOD againt Lin and the Knicks, too.
DeleteIf you consider that a #1 overall pick was totally unable to outplay a twice waived D league undraftee, "good" starts to not look so "good".
DeleteAre you downgrading Lin or Irving?
DeleteTake your pick.
DeleteYou've downgraded Lin, which is a surprise because up to now, you've been an ardent Lin fan.
Delete"twice waived D league undraftee" - after what Lin accomplished last season, that's your sum view of Lin? More to the point, that's the evaluation by which you compare other players to Lin?
GOTCHA!!!
DeleteLike a clueless prey that gets baited to its death, you fell for my TRAP.
I've known from the beginning that you hate Jeremy Lin and hate even more guys like me who upset your racist world view that Lin can't play. But your own hatred got the better of you here.
Eric, you need to understand that this is a Jeremy Lin fansite. Every time you try to punk Lin and his supporters, you put yourself at risk of punking yourself like you did to yourself right here.
Unfortunately for you, Jeremy Lin is indeed a "twice waived D league undraftee". Even you aren't dumb enough to claim that Lin wasn't waived twice, had never played in the D league, or was.undrafted.
Where you fell hook line and sinker for my trap was trying to attach your own erroneous assumptuons of how I feel about Lin's minor league status. Your desire to erroneously humiliate me was so.great that you failed to notice that "twice waived D league undraftee" is an accurate and unopinionated statement about the truth. Instead, you jumped to the false.conclusion that I was bashing Lin. And now I'm calling you out.
Listen closely, Eric. A lot of us are more onto you than you think we are. I promise that every time you come at us, we will come at you at least as hard. Your fake politeness isn't fooling anyone, and I'm only going to go at you harder if you put up more of your false friendliness malice filled posts.
Jeremy Lin isn't celebrated like Kyrie Irving because of Lin's Asian ethnicity, but he got the better of Irving and will continue to. Lin is a bonafide NBA star no matter how you hate Lin and especially his fans.
I look forward to confronting you on future posts.
Wow, KHuang. Just...wow.
DeleteFirst off, I was also a bit perplexed by Eric's guess; it was obvious from the start that you felt Kyrie was overrated.
But really, this unbelievably reactive calling people as vengeful racists has got to stop. As far as I can tell, Eric is pretty darn Asian. Take a look at his blog avatar. To my eye at least, it's not some spoof ID he created just to "flame and game" Asians on a JLin fansite. It's an actual blog. And what exactly is "fake" about his "politeness", pray tell? In my extensive experience, that is how young well-educated ABC males tend to write. I'm Taiwanese and I'm not "onto" him. Good grief.
Maybe it's that Eric appreciates Irving AND Rondo. On Rondo, let's just say that we can appreciate different qualities in a PG. A guy like Magic doesn't reliably appear every generation. Just because Eric, or some other guy, values what Rondo brings to the role of PG, doesn't mean that he doesn't value JLin's game as PG. The league is big enough, and the game nuanced enough, for us to appreciate different aspects. Have you ever considered how difficult conversation here can be because you are almost always jumping out of your seat to "prove" one or another commenter a racist?
If you want to call me a racist, too, then sure. I would then proceed with the discussion in Chinese. Oh and FYI I am a new Anonymous. Been reading since forever and let's just say this was a last straw.
Well hello and welcome to this blog. What a great introduction you've made.
DeleteYou know what? Asians can be racist too. Some of them can be downright rude, especially to each other.
I don't care what color Jeremy Lin is, and I couldn't care less what color you are. I'm not going to sit here and let you or any other hater mock me because I believe in Jeremy Lin and DO consider him a Magic Johnson level player with Magic Johnson type on court results.
I get that it's not fashionable for Asian Americans to stand up for their rights, that any talk of Jeremy Lin being a great NBA player has to be accompanied by trashing him against players like Rondo who produce less than he does, that anybody who believes in Lin and correctly predicted his success is a fool, and that defending Lin against racial haters makes.the defender a racist. And you know what? I won't buy into your garbage.
I like Jeremy Lin. He has produced more than Kyrie Irving has and is doing better than Rajon Rondo did in his 2nd year.
You don't like my analysis? TOUGH. Come back to me with convincing evidence that these guys are better than Lin. I'll believe you. And don't pull Eric's passive aggressive garbage of trying to tell me what I think and then act butt hurt about it.
Oops, my comment was previewing as "Anon", didn't realize name would show, not it matters either way.
DeleteSince when was appreciating another PG's passing "trashing" JLin? No one is saying that due to Rondo's 44pt playoff game, he has a better jumper than JLin, as that assertion would obviously be mighty hard to defend.
I don't dislike your analysis, and I'm sure most here don't, either. What I dislike is your putting forth your analysis as The Word, with anyone who doesn't agree 1001% being a bigot.
I'm not telling you what you think. I have been telling you what I perceive you to be thinking. Amply clear from my wording. As in, I. p.e.r.s.o.n.a.l.l.y. find you to be f.r.o.t.h.i.n.g. at the mouth half the time. "Butt hurt"? What an endearing term :) More like irritated. But sure, it's your prerogative to think I'm crying a river over your tireless rants. Whatever gives you sweet dreams, buddy!
Actually, I'm OK with the respectful things you just wrote. Good post.
DeleteWelcome to the board. I look forward to reading more of your opinions.
I agree about the need to emphasize his health. iman will be out for a while and nash is out of the picture. whoever starts at the point for the knicks will be putting in 40+ minutes. I can hear that acl tearing now. I don't know if's the knicks organization or if it's msg but that team is injury prone. seems like his only hope of getting away from the knicks is a back loaded deal that the knicks refuse to match. if the knicks gets bird rights then it's all over for lin's acl.
ReplyDeleteOh it's not that grim.
DeleteThe Knicks need a backup pg, and they'll get one. Since they can't spend that much money, it'll not be a pg who beats out Lin for the starting job.
With a one legged Lin and Woodson, the Knicks crushed opponents early and allowed Lin to sit out entire 4th quarters. Besides, the Knick who's going to play mega minutes is Carmelo Anthony who is the highest paid player on the team.
I expect Lin's minutes to hover around 30 minutes.
2011/2012 does not do justice to JLIN. Is is human nature when the team is start looking games, who is the easiest target they shoot pot at? The PG with high turnover but team should sit back and think hard and come up with a solution and do better next season.
ReplyDeleteJLIN came off the bench and start playing more than 30 mins per game; it has taken toll on his body.
When Amare and Melo return, they don't have enough time to build the chemistry to play well together.
JLIN has high turnover and he acknowledge that too and given time, experience and if he continue to work hard on his improve his skills plus clamp down on his weaknesses, there is no doubt he can be an all star PG which we are looking forward to.
I trust he will make a wise decision regarding his future in NBA and for his fans, no matter where you are, backing him all the way is the best encouragement and present we can give him.
I liked Woodson's handling of Lin last year. It was balanced and I hope to see a similarly balanced use of Lin next season.
ReplyDeleteThere is little danger of Woodson unreasonably limiting Lin's role. The greater threat is overuse of Lin and his repaired knees. Why? Just look at the Knicks roster, which likely won't be boosted much due to the team's salary cap situation. Their high-level perimeter scorers and playmakers are Anthony, Lin and who else? Even if Anthony is forcefed an all-time level of touches and shots and is in good enough shape to maintain an all-time workload over a full NBA season, there will be plenty left over for Lin.
Some fans are concerned about Lin playing too much with the underlying fear that Lin's knees are too fragile for the NBA. (These fans say Lin's knees won't be ready for basketball even as late as the July! Team USA practices.) Other fans complain that Woodson won't play Lin enough and want the Linsanity conditions restored, despite that Linsanity required a heavy workload (minutes and ball-handling) that beat up Lin.
Porridge too hot, too cold, just right - Woodson's use of Lin, for now, is close to just right. Lin should mature enough as an NBA player in the next 1-2 years to where can take on a Linsanity level workload for a full season. Until then, Woodson hopefully won't give into the temptation to overuse Lin like D'Antoni overused Lin, even though Lin is 1 of only 2 Knicks who can create offense.
And some fans like you get off on making fun of other fans.
DeletePATHETIC, Eric.
Bottom line is that Carmelo and Stoudamire resent the success and attention, shots that Jeremy gets and Woodson is hitching his wagon to Anthony unlike Dantoni who lived with Lin. Don't be surprised if Lin signs with Toronto Raptors.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Anthony is Woodson's centerpiece, but for the next 1-2 seasons, I don't see that as a problem.
DeletePlays will begin with the ball in Lin's hands and, when he does give it up, the ball will return to him often.
Anthony has said he prefers not to be a point forward. Lin and Anthony have different roles, not just different positions. Whether or not there's actually a catty diva melodrama between Anthony and Lin, basketball-wise there's no conflict unless Lin really does want to be a ball-dominant first-option scorer, which is Anthony's role. Lin has shown he can be a ball-dominant first-option scorer in the NBA and I would be glad to see him become that again someday. But if Lin fashions himself as a point guard first, which he apparently does, then there's no conflict with Anthony.
From the perspective of Lin's scoring instincts, the Knicks simply don't have natural scorers besides Anthony competing for Lin's shots. Anthony and Lin are the only Knicks who can reliably create for themselves. Stoudamire can't create; he's a D'Antoni creation who depends heavily on the point guard. If Stoudamire resents any teammate, it will be Chandler and Anthony for occupying either of his scoring zones, not Lin.
With defenses focused on Anthony, Lin will get fewer shots than he did during Linsanity, but they should be better quality shots. Drives, shots, and passes should open for him as a second option because of how smart, quick, and decisive he is. Where Lin's half-court ball-handling and vision still have to improve to be a conventional PG, they're fine for an off-the-ball SG. Imagine Lin getting the ball back facing a gap, the defense caught in rotation, when he's watched the play develop - he'll do damage. Given the Knicks lack of options, I expect Lin will still be the first option on many plays.
I totally agree.
DeleteGood analysis, Eric.
"Bottom line is that Carmelo and Stoudamire resent the success and attention shots that Jeremy gets"
DeleteProve it
"and Woodson is hitching his wagon to Anthony"
Why shouldn't he?
"unlike Dantoni who lived with Lin."
That is a lie. D'Antoni barely played Lin for most of the season, and then tried to replace him with Deron Williams.
Unknown, enough.
DeleteMike Nice is merely pointing out objective things about Lin that have already been reported in the media. He's not editorializing.
Besides, nobody and especially not you knows if Dantoni would've played DWill over Lin. It never happened to begin with, and so you should move on from that.
you can vote on the event that created "the most buzz on social media" here: http://www.nba.com/sma/?ls=iref:nbahpt1 See also http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/linsanity-continues-ny-knicks-jeremy-lin-epic-award-first-ever-nba-social-media-awards-article-1.1092374, which is linked on the side of this page.
ReplyDeleteoh, and the voting includes Linsanity, featuring Lin's 38-pt victory over the Lakers.
ReplyDeleteI believe that players should not make more than their coaches. It was like this long ago in the NBA. And there will probably be no move in that direction ever.
ReplyDeleteI wish folks would quit saying "Rajon Rondo is so good because he plays with 3 Hall of Famers!" Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett are way past their primes (36, 36, 34), and not only are they clearly in decline, but are rarely healthy and together at the same time. Also, Ray Allen's career average is 20 ppg (which he hasn't come close to since joining Boston). Garnett is a career 19 ppg scorer, which he also hasn't come close to since joining Boston. Pierce is the only one of "the Big 3" who has actually consistently played like an All-Star since they have been together.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing: those three "Hall of Famers" were career losers and underachievers. Boston was Ray Allen's third team for a reason. Kevin Garnett didn't accomplish squat in Minnesota until his last year there. And Paul Pierce hadn't had any real playoff success since his first 2 seasons. It took playing with Rondo to make these guys winners, and Rondo is the best player on the team. The guy averaged almost 12 assists a game this year, and you are going to tell me that they were "easy" because he is passing to the over-the-hill gang? And Allen and Pierce are only primarily jump-shooters now because they can't penetrate like they used to. Allen, Pierce and Garnett need Rondo to create shots for them, and if they didn't play with one of the few PGs in the NBA who actually plays like a PG, they wouldn't be anywhere near as effective because they're too old and slow to create their own shots. Don't pretend as if Rondo is playing with Kobe Bryant - who scores 28 points a game - or anything close.
Rondo is a very, very good player, and I really don't see what would motivate anyone to try to diminish that.
well said. I think Rondo makes it easier for the team more than the others make it easier for him.
DeleteRay Allen, Paul Pierce, and Kevin Garnett have NEVER underachieved.
DeleteDon't throw those three great players into the trash in a pointless effort to flame Lin and his fans.
You can't be a multiyear All Star, lead your team to playoff experiences, and be the prime focus of opposing defenses by underachieving.
Most importantly, this is a Jlin fansite. Don't come here looking to make Lin fans look stupid and then not expect to get called out.
oh yea, I wouldn't call any of the 3 losers but Rondo is a great player.
DeleteKHuang, he isn't making Lin fans look stupid; he is simply stating the other side of the argument. Just because this is a Lin fan site doesn't mean there should only be one correct stance. And nowhere in his post was he flaming Lin or Lin's fans, he was "throwing those 3 great players into the trash" to prove that Rondo is just as valuable and great as those three Hall of Famers. I have no idea where you got "flaming Lin and his fans" from. I do agree that Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett have never underachieved. They have however, not been in their prime like the post said and they would not be as successful without Rondo.
DeleteDon't get me wrong, I'm a junior in high school and I love Jeremy Lin as a young Asian American myself. He is my role model and is one of the most inspiring people ever. I haven't seen all of your posts KHuang, but it seems like in your effort to elevate Jeremy Lin and his game, you often belittle other great players like Rondo.
Contrary to what unknown states, the Big Three are not "career losers and underachievers" and that it "took Rondo to turn those guys into winners". That IS throwing those Hall of Famers into the trash heap, Samvictor.
DeleteI have watched the NBA longer than you've been alive, Samvictor. I have watched Allen and Pierce and Garnett dominate, and I also was aware of Rondo when my hometown Suns WISELY passed up on him because he couldn't shoot. I used to read in the papers how Ray Allen and Doc Rivers worked and worked and worked with Rondo because he was the only pg the Celtics could offer. I am not kidding you when I tell you that Jeremy Lin's incredible 2nd year was so much better than Rondo's, nor am I kidding you when I tell you that Rondo now never made the kind of athletic plays or felt the kind of "Jordan Rules" defense that Lin has faced actually before he even entered the NBA.
Rondo is a good player who has the fortune to play on a good team. However I have watched the NBA for enough decades to know that a guy like Rondo who can't create his own shot, cannot break guys down off the dribble in isolation, cannot shoot well enough to be counted on for points, and cannot draw a double team is a guy who would likely struggle in a situation like Lin's. I've also seen that guys like Lin who not just can create their own shot but can create for others are GUARANTEED to succeed on any team they play for, and that's why I elevate Lin over most pgs in the NBA.
Before criticizing my efforts to "elevate" Lin (as if a dominant All Star level player like Lin needs "elevating"), you should take your own suggestion and reread all the way back to January. I was predicting Lin's success back before Linsanity even happened the same way I am now. Meanwhile guys like "unknown" that you defend were saying that Lin couldn't play in the NBA, and that was AFTER Lin broke through with the Knicks.
There's another big difference between me and you. Jeremy Lin doesn't inspire me because he's Asian. He inspires me because he's a GREAT PLAYER, one of the best PGs I've ever seen (and I've seen just about all of them, including ones OUTSIDE the NBA). And if I see Lin doing more on an NBA court than a cherrypicker like Rondo, I'm going to go with the guy that produces more (and the stats back it up too).
Listen closely, Samvictor. Often the other side of the argument is DEAD WRONG (i.e. Pierce and Allen and Garnett were "losers" and suddenly developed game because Rajon Rondo showed up).
just to be clear i'm Unknown#2. No offense KHuang, there's plenty of reason for us to be excited and to be fans of Lin but you do make it seem like he's the best there was, the best there is and the best there will be.
DeleteI know exactly difference between you two.
DeleteWell, Lin sure performed like the best player in his first few starts. Given all the negative perceptions and hostility Lin has overcome just to get to the NBA let alone star in it, he cannot be anything less than one of the greatest talents ever to dribble the round leather ball.
I never said that Lin was the best, especially since I don't believe that there is truly such a thing as the "best basketball player". All I know is that Jeremy Lin has played as well as anybody in his undrafted twice waived negatively stereotyped shoes could possibly play.
If Jeremy Lin was any color other than Asian, people would be celebrating him as great new NBA star that he actually is. Instead, Lin's on court production is ignored in a yellow haze of anti Asian prejudice and incorrect stereotypes.
JLin can be franchise player great. Rondo is really good. I have been impressed with his decision making/court/passing and surprised how much he has been able to finish in the lane. But, he is just not the type of talent you would call a franchise player. From what I have seen so far, you can build a franchise around JLin in a couple of years if not right now. His dribble penetration in traffic, outside shot, court vision both half-court and on the fast break, maturity and mental toughness, and leadership and influence on and off the court is rare. And from a fan's/marketing perspective, I'd buy a ticket just because JLin is in the game.
DeleteIt's awesome how wilsc can say same things I do but not get flamed for it because he doesn't have an Asian screenname.
DeleteThat is the crux of the whole Jeremy Lin debate, if one really thinks about it.
@KHuang: agrees, when people see Asian Jlin supporter they immediately prejudge you as biased! That can be quite frustrating.
DeleteOn the other hand, perhaps their strong reactions is a testament to how forceful and well argued your views have been!
wilsc, you're just awesome.
DeleteWe need more courageous people like you.
Just saying it how I see it! To be honest, I was a JLin fan only because of his story and Asian background and I did not have any particular opinion about whether he was capable of being great (even though the facts were all there to point to that conclusion). The reasons you have given in persistently arguing that he is a great player and can be even greater has shed new light on how I saw JLin. I have come to appreciate the fact that this guy is a legend in the making for the reason that he has a unique set of tangible and intangible basketball skills, and not merely because he has a unique story. Put shortly, you've helped distinguish between very good and the "real deal" (as HOF PG Magic Johnson puts it)!
DeleteThanks, wilsc.
DeleteThe last guy I saw who was the same exact size and had nearly the same exact game as Lin was a black 1980s player named Micheal Ray "Sugar" Richardson. Sugar was an All Star whose career was derailed by drugs.
It appears to me that Lin had a better 2nd year than Sugar despite being far less highly rated than Sugar. Sugar was so good that he was drafted ahead of Larry Bird.
Jeremy Lin is, to my veteran eyes, the new and improved Sugar. And Sugar was better than Rajon Rondo could ever be.
NOW I am overposting.
DeleteHere is an interesting exercise, wilsc. When watching an NBA gamevon TV or.live, don't listen to the announcers talking about players and don't pay attention to the names on the jersey. Simply WATCH.
If you look closely, you can see what players are initiating and what players are finishing. You'll also see who's playing real defense.
Look a little more closely and you'll see players that look good but don't get anything done while there are other players who don't seem capable of making plays but actually make them. The hard thing to do here is not let racial stereotypes get in the way (i.e. black players aren't always the most athletic, white players aren't always the most skilled, and Asian players aren't always the least athletic AND least skilled).
What I am getting at is this, wilsc. If you can somehow look at the court as if Jeremy Lin is just another number, you'll see how GOOD that guy really is.
The problem with Rondo is he hasnt lived up to his true potential. Hasnt really grown into the type of player even his coach or bostonians imagine him to be. He is getting there but time is running out with the aging all-star cast around him like you said. That is why the rumor mill is always ongoing for a trade year after year. Rondo has many great qualities but also many bad ones as well. Chief among them is he cannot shoot so he has to pass to deflect the attention away from his shot. His shot is weak as hell, as evidenced by the finals against the lakers. The lakers gave him space to bait him to shoot. He never took them. That brings on my second point he lacks confidence. Sounds strange? Not at all. Inconsistent, chokes on shots, not aggressive, and unwilling to take over as the unequivocal leader of the team. All signs of lack of confidence. He is a excellent passer, but he does have guys around him who can knock down shots reliably, thus boosting the assists stat. Im not a Rondo hater. Im an admirer as a fan. But if he was a teammate of Magic or even Kobe they will ride him hard. Because its frustrating as hell to see talent go to waste year after year without a marked improvement. True the others have declined due to age but if Rondo had improved itd be negating factor and you should see boston back in the finals not miami!
ReplyDeleteWell, the Heat are a tough team with Lebron James playing like a MVP. I.won't blame any Celtic for the Heat winning.
DeleteRondo has his limitations, but he's still a championship level PG who deserves a good reputation. Lin has yet to earn that reputation, though to me Lin has ample talent to not just become a championship caliber pg but also a guy who can carry his team.
Jeremy Lin will eventually earn a good salary, just as Rondo does.
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ReplyDeleteKHuang Myopics will never be objective enough to see the truth. Rondo is much better player offensively defensively, better rebounder, better passer, much better in terms of assist to turnover ratio, much faster , better jumper, than Jeremy Lin. And I am a Jeremy Lin fan not a rondo fan. People like you make others root against Jeremy. At least try to be real. Hopefully one day Jeremy Lin will surpass rondo but as of now, In a draft, rondo would be picked way ahead of Jeremy Lin Either KHuang doesn't know basketball or he is just too infatuated with Jeremy to see the truth.
ReplyDeleteTruth is JLin PER better than Rondo's.
DeleteTruth is JLin historic start that Rondo has never done.
Truth is JLin's second year vastly eclipsing Rondo's second year.
Truth is lots of haters like you hating on guys like me. And welcome to this forum, whatever that means.
By the way castleman, there are a lot of other people here who also think Jeremy Lin is better then Rondo.
DeleteI know you think it's more socially acceptable to flame me just because I have an Asian screenname, but you've got to understand that there are a lot of guys who think like me that you're afraid to go.after.
Like the other haters here, I am ENJOYING using your hatred as AMMUNITION to break down barriers.
Okay, let's break this down:
Deleteoffensively- Rondo's jumper needs lots of work. Has nifty layups that enable him to get to the basket and finish, but the finish isn't very consistent because he sometimes gets too circusy with them, having conditioned himself to expect he'll be chased down and blocked or whatever. Thought exercise on offensive criteria: if Scott Brooks could have chosen either Lin or Rondo to replace Harden after Ron Artest's elbow at the end of the regular season, who would he have taken? Lin's and Harden's skill sets don't overlap perfectly, but there's a much greater overlap than between Rondo and Harden.
defensively- Rondo loves getting steals. He's been at or near the top in the league consistently. But an obsession with steals can become a distraction, and while I don't think he's quite there, he's toeing the line. Man on man D, I'll have to wait for Lin to be accustomed to NBA starter minutes, and for the knee to be fine.
better rebounder- The "his whole team just shoots jumpers, leading to long rebounds" doesn't work. First, Pierce is still capable of and willing to get into the paint, and you know something is wrong when he's not getting to the free throw line multiple times a game. Avery Bradley is also growing into an astute cutter. Also, most of Rondo's boards are drebs, which don't have to do with his own team's jump shots. All of that said, Rondo gets those boards because the Celts are atrocious rebounders, age not permitting them to do it consistently unless Doc hammers it home. Rondo will not get his triple-double if KG is being a monster on the boards, and if Pierce is getting a double-double. I speculate that if Lin were on the Celts, he would get a similar number of rebs.
better passer- Give credit where credit is due. I'm a diehard Celts fan, and like Pierce much more than Rondo. The Big 3 deserve to be HOFers, but they haven't been consistently playing like it. Talent and heart can only cover so much for age. There have been many games this season when Celts were shooting 30-35%, and yet Rondo still manages 10+ assists. If you watch them regularly, you'll see that a lot of times, Rondo throws one of the guys what should become a gimme basket, but they just don't finish. Would I prefer to see Pierce and Allen healthy and Rondo's role naturally diminished? Yes, but I have to admit he's doing a whole lot for this team right now.
assist to turnover ratio- Rondo is not prone to TOs unless he decides to go for highlight reel passes. But remember that he was groomed to be a PG. He played with Josh Smith in high school, and then went to Kentucky. All this time, he has been refining his craft as a ballhandler, not a shooter. For a long time, I couldn't figure out what was wrong with Rondo's jumpshot mechanics. Then recently, Reggie Miller noted that he was palming the ball when he was shooting. That made sense, because I wasn't noticing anything strange with his arm or wrist motions. But I was shocked, because ball on fingertips is something you learn in Pee Wee bball. One reason kids are given kiddie balls is so that they don't develop the habit of palming a large ball just to hold onto it. That Rondo was allowed to get away with this glaring bad habit all the way into the NBA shows that he was never given the chance to be the go-to scorer. Contrast this with Lin, who was a SG through college, and whose ballhandling skills were more than adequate against competition that often wasn't worthy of him.
...continued...
...continued.
Deletemuch faster- Sprinting, I don't know. Endurance, Rondo. I'd bet on Rondo to outrun Lin in a 5K as of this past season, due to conditioning. Rondo just almost never looks tired, no matter how many minutes he's played. Maybe it's the Red Bull. I expect the difference will be a nonissue next season.
better jumper (I assume you mean he can jump higher or with more endurance)- Don't know. Give me Lin with improved conditioning, so better stamina, and a fixed knee, and then we'll see.
PER- I take PER with a huge grain of salt. The constants in the formula are empirically, not deductively, determined, and it is entirely justifiable to speculate that Hollinger curve fit the formula to a pre-ranked list of his favorites in order to obtain the constants. Its derivation is a dubious art, and its application such a fickle art as to be more easily misused than to be useful. It's similar to many of the technical indicators some use to trade the market. They have equations and look cool, but aren't amenable to a rigorous mathematical proof of why they work. On my bucket list is downloading the stats of tons of players and tinkering with the PER formula to see what happens. The supremely 1-dimensional Blake Griffin is 2nd among PFs in PER, way ahead of KG. Among PGs, Westbrook is ahead of Lin. Sure Russie can score, but he is a ballhogging volume shooter who in my eyes is a liability to his team, unlike Lin.
intangibles- If I were a coach, I would definitely take Lin over Rondo. Doc Rivers gets mega bonus points for putting up with Rondo's attitude and trying to bring out the best in him. Doc has said that Rondo's "worst opponent is himself", and that a lot of times his play is in a rut because he's still hung up about a play that occurred more than 1/2 a quarter ago. Those are two huge liabilities. A player who is always waging a mental battle with himself, and allows himself these lapses of concentration, is a guy who will find it difficult to reach his potential. Lin, as we all know, doesn't come with that baggage, and brings a priceless alacrity to the work of getting even better.
Also KHuang, can you just chill already? Maybe Castleman is just a Bulls fan who is just jealous of the attention Lin gets vs. their injured former MVP. Not everyone is automatically hating you for being Asian. I wasted all this time addressing Castleman's points because I don't like seeing conversations descending into hatefests before the original subject matter is even explored.
DeleteWhew. I'm done for the foreseeable future.
Yeah, you should be done.
DeleteYou're wearing yourself out trying to degrade me using Jeremy Lin.
You are entitled to your opinions. Meanwhile, it would be fun to see if Rajon Rondo is indeed faster than John Wall who is the same speed as Lin.
And by the way yang333, you and castleman have a whole bunch of people on this thread alone who think Lin is better than Rondo.
DeleteYou had best start flaming them too lest you CONTINUE to look like the Asian self hater that you are making yourself out to be.
Jeremy Lin has much slower top speed, but his acceleration is on par. This is a fact.
DeleteYour statement does not make sense in physics. Vf=V0+AT.
DeleteVf is final speed and V0 is initial speed. A is acceleration and T is duration of acceleration.
If "A" is about the same, let's assume V0 is the same, the only way to have Vf1>Vf2 is that T1>T2. Given the court size and limitation, it is dubious that one player can have longer duration of acceleration.
Bottom line, "much slower top speed", "same acceleration" does not sound right in physics.
Who cares?
DeleteYou can measure this crap and it's fun but it's different when applied to the sport. In relation to football, a 4.20 on the 40 does not make you a good football player. There's a difference in 40 speed and what they call "football speed".
Meanwhile, KHuang and I disagree on certain aspects of Lin's athleticism (changing directions on the fly, especially with the ball, his jumping ability, etc.) compared to the Roses and Westbrooks, he still has pretty darn good athleticism. His GREAT timing, anticipation, hands and court awareness more than makes up for his lack of "ultra-athleticism".
Hey, my boys aren't being too unruly today, so I'm back to remonstrate with you instead :) KHuang, I did not provide an assessment of whether Lin or Rondo is categorically better.
DeleteBasketball is not a science, which is what makes it more interesting to watch and challenging to evaluate than say, baseball. Batting avg will tell you way more about a baseball player than any single stat will tell you about a basketball player. That said, while I have reservations about measurements like PER and +/- (correlation does not equal causation!), I would love to see, in addition to simple means, the standard deviations and medians of most of the measurements. FG%, assists, etc. That would tell us a ton about streakiness.
I am interested but wary of placing too much importance on top speed as, for one thing, basketball consists of a lot of lateral movement. My point about Rondo's and Lin's putative 5K times relates to endurance. Case in point: Melo. I don't think he chokes in 4q because honestly, despite lip service to the contrary, I don't believe he cares about winning more than personal glory. But his production tails off dramatically late in the game due to lack of endurance. There have been times when I wished JLin could have just lay down on the parquet in transition for a magical 5 second power nap. A lot of the fatigue was due to the media frenzy of Linsanity, but he also had a year of deconditioning due to not getting to play. As I said, this will not matter next year.
"You are entitled to your opinions." Since I consider you afflicted with the solipsistic conceit that your opinions on basketball are G-d-given truth, that was a very pleasant surprise! Cheers, buddy!
Although still, I would really love to learn what an "Asian self hater" is. A psychological and sociological definition, please? I'm just really confused because my Eurasian boys are extremely proud to call themselves Asian, and I'm extremely proud of them for that.
I'm not interested in confronting others on this site because they are not, in my view, making this site a lot less fun to read. Self-righteous vitriol and paranoia about racism really aren't my thing, and I think I'm far from alone in feeling that way. I will have no qualms about confronting others if they do in fact begin to spew such vitriol and paranoia.
Unknown, I would take Lin over Westbrook without hesitation. In my view, for a PG, athleticism is less useful than getting your teammates involved. Sometimes I want to put ink under Russie's sneakers to illustrate the convoluted path he dribbles looking for his own shot, rather than simply passing the ball to KD who, if he isn't open, is not a ballstopper and would pass it back or to someone else. If it's not that, it's grabbing the ball in transition and making a beeline to attempt a pull-up jumper, which is promptly rebounded by the opponent. JLin does so much more for his team, and would score as much if given the opportunity.
Every daily life activity involves science. However, you do not have to deal with it every day. But, when making justifying argument, it matters.
DeleteBasketball is not science but it involves science. Chaos theory says it beautifully.
Keep cool guys.
I am not here to attack anybody. Just want to point out things that does not make sense in physics.
OK, game resets. You can talk whatever you want. I am not going to comment anymore.
2fc77228-7df9-11e1-8e09-000bcdcb471e, I think it was obvious, but my point about basketball != science above was not in relation to what you mentioned. I would be the last to contradict Newtonian mechanics in the context of bball, as neither JLin nor anyone else is moving anywhere near the speed of light to require the use of a relativistic framework ;)
DeleteYou just can't stop trying to attack me yang3333, can you?
DeleteIt's not about Lin and it's not about Rondo. You just happen to dislike me so much that you won't hesitate to say incorrect things about me like me thinking my opinion is "G-d given truth".
Asian or not, you are acting either like a racist who will only go after people with Asian screennames or a racist who will only go after people with Asian screennames.
Understand this, yang3333. As long as you.keep flaming me, I will keep coming after you. Asians like you who come after me but are terrified of flaming all other races for sharing my same opinions draw a special kind of wrath from me. So as long as I am on this board, expect full retaliation from me.
I simply see no other reason to confront others because they are not trying their darnedest to thwart civil discourse, as you did with Eric, who simply misunderstood you for one second. If someone named Bob Smith came along sounding like you, rest assured that I would confront him, too.
DeleteCall me old fashioned, but I expect someone who claims he is old enough to be Lin's father to demonstrate poise, to be an elder statesman whenever younger individuals do have a disagreement, not to be an instigator strewing accusations of racism left and right. If it weren't for the early 80s basketball trivia that you occasionally share, I would flat out refuse to believe you are as old as you say you are. You sound like some of the hotheaded teenagers and young adults I deal with on a regular basis. Nothing wrong with that, per se, only it's strange to me that being a generation older hasn't given you more perspective. And words like "retaliation" in this sort of online discussion to me just seem, well, oddly out of place.
Nevertheless, I do greatly admire your energy. I'm not always free, but will be happy to engage with you in the future.
Now you're denying my age? How low can you go???
DeleteI have punked many people of all ages like you who considered themselves my superior. When you've lived as long as I have, you will learn that one can be as disrespectful as you are at any age.
Eric and I have had a long running battle because he hates Lin and Lin's fans and is here to try to rile up guys like you to openly flame people. He is fighting a proxy race war using YOU as his weapon. I will stand up to him or you or anybody else whose sole purpose here is to insult others and degrade their humanity.
I am not one of those stereotypical meek Asian Americans who is going to sit quietly as guys like you and Eric try to insult me and do insane things like question my age. I am a MILITANT Asian who has successfully WON against racists of all colors, including other Asians. Like Jeremy Lin who won't back down from anybody, I won't back down from you unless JLinfan#1 orders me to. So the BATTLE IS ON.
You seek to degrade me for being Asian the same way haters try to degrade Lin for being a great Asian American basketball player. Unfortunately, you picked the wrong guy to attack. You now have a full blown WAR on your hands, racist.
However, yang3333, I should also let you know that I'm happy to discuss basketball matters with you on a respectful level. After all, I am actually a huge FAN of Eric's thoughtful analysis.
DeleteI hate fighting, and I despise racial issues. I don't even care that Lin is Asian other than the hatred and disrespect thrown at him is unbecoming to the sport of basketball.
Fair treatment of Lin is what he and other Asian Americans deserve. Everybody knows that there is the dreaded "Asian double standard" that degrades Asians and their efforts. Most of us here would agree that Lin has to battle barriers that no other NBA player has ever had to face.
I am offering you an olive branch here. In the spirit of Jeremy Lin who puts his head down and just plays, I'm extending a legit offer of judgment free RESPECT from me.to you. If you take it, I will humbly.back down.
What part of "***If[!!!!!] it weren't for the early 80s basketball trivia that you occasionally share***, I would flat out refuse to believe...." do you not understand?
DeleteKHuang (and any curious bystanders), before I accept your olive branch, allow me to share the story of how I met my husband. We were in grad school. My then-best friend, who is white, invited me out with a group including the guy she was dating and an Asian guy, whom she was trying to set me up with. We were out drinking, but I only had maybe 1/3 a beer because I was 25 and too self-conscious about Asian glowing among Caucasians.
In any case, after one too many drinks, my friend's date, who was up till then a civilized guy, decided to hurl a truly unforgivably, unspeakably racist remark at me. Sober and singlehandedly, the little Asian lady, whose only physical accomplishment was being on the varsity bball team in high school, took him down with a number of hard blows (and maybe a beer bottle, I honestly forget). He was hospitalized for the night, just with a very bloody nose and for stitches, but nothing to worry about from the cops, because who there would have reported "abuse/violence" so humiliating? I still refer to the guy as "Scarface", because the defense of my pride left a pretty huge one on his jaw. My girl friend didn't speak to me for years after that, and we're not exactly close today. What I gained, though, was an impressed boyfriend, who proposed to me two years later. But is it possible that marriage and motherhood make one soft against racism?
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DeleteI suppose it is not 100% impossible, but it's not possible if you walk around with half-white, half-Asian looking kids. Do you know what it's like to have your kid come home from school hysterically bawling because someone called him a "snow white ch___?" Do you know what it's like to teach him, step by step, how to stand up to bullies, verbally and physically, but with economy of words and action? Do you know what it's like to see your kid taking boxing lessons from their dad not because they want to be Jackie Chan, but because they heeded your advice and got beat up by the much older brother of a kid whose butt he had previously kicked?
Do you know what it's like to not be able to go to social functions or parent-child functions without encountering someone saying or body language-ing something blatantly racist, possibly racist, or justmaybepossibly racist? I would not be able to go straight from my home to the grocery store with kids in tow if I decided to confront every insinuation of racism that came my way, from the old lady walking her beagle to skateboarding goth wannabe teenagers. Not only would I not be able to function professionally if I reacted to every insinuation, but I would not be able to function as a human being.
In my life, I have learned to pick my battles. I stand up very emphatically to the cases of blatant racism, and you know what? The cases of maybes, justmaybepossiblys, disappear quite rapidly. People learn quickly that you are not meek or a pushover. Will they ever disappear completely? No, but I have a career to manage, kids to take care of, and a life to live, which can't be frittered away on too much other than the blatant cases.
My issue with you is, it is a non sequitur to go from, "X does not like my conduct or opinion" to "X is racist [does not like my conduct or opinion BECAUSE of my race]". It just does not logically follow. Do I, like you, suspect that Woodson is racist against Lin? Absolutely, based on his digs against Lin's toughness and qualifications as a starter. If racism were against the law, would I willing to stand up in a court of law and condemn him as a racist? No, not because I'm afraid of anything, but because he hasn't incontrovertibly shown that he doubts Lin BECAUSE of his race. I'm waiting and waiting for Woodson to reveal himself, upon which I can call him out for what I suspect he is, but I doubt that's going to happen, because MSG is advising him on PR, and he also now has CAA to represent him. Can you at least try to see the difference I'm getting at?
Also, in my life, I find it advisable to take note when someone tells me what they think I'm expressing, and it's totally counter to what I was intending to express. I have been perceiving you as believing your own opinion to be inviolable fact. You say that that is not what you mean. When I'm faced with this sort of discrepancy, I like to reflect upon how it is that my words or actions might have been misconstrued. Such reflection helps most people, and certainly never hurts. Cheers.
Of course racism itself isn't against the law, but I do wonder how a case of systematic discrimination by coach against player in the NBA would go down. Semi-random idle speculation.
DeleteOk, that's all good. Great posts.
DeleteI see some real respect and kindness on your part there. Toughness too.
Welcome to the board. I look forward to more of your thoughtful analysis.
I have been thru a lot MORE than what you've described, yang3333.
DeleteThere are multiple ways to combat racism. Sometimes a man like me has to simply stand his ground, especially when he is battling more one foe at a time.
My life context is completely different from yours, as likely is also my age. I am no longer young enough to care if people disapprove of my strong defensive efforts. Also, I've become totally brazen in repulsing any kind of attack because I ama man and that's how a man functions. Playing nice for me onky invites more disrespect and more enemies.
I've said it before and will say it again. Asian American men, STAND YOUR GROUND!!!
Yeah, #1 j!
DeleteWhat are the good things in life for Asian American men?
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their racist women after you've made your hate driven attackers into your ounching bags.
... and I do not consider yang3333 my enemy.
DeleteI respect her and our differences in opinion. My statement above doesn't apply to her, but it certainly does to Jason Whitlock and his "lucky lady feeling a couple inches of pain" racist remark about Jeremy Lin.
No more silent minority treatment. Jeremy Lin is spearheading the way.
#1 j, cliffs notes version: I was advocating picking one's battles, NOT being the silent "model" minority.
DeleteAre you a member of the texting generation that can't digest more than three sentences at once? ;)
I finally learned how to text last year, yang3333!
DeleteI am so proud of myself because indeed I can barely digest more than 3 sentences at once now. The saving grace is that I am less stodgy and even uses quasi words like LOL.
I guess I pick my battles too - ALL of them!
From what I observed during playoffs (and I stress the fact that JLin has not played in playoffs which to me carries more pressure), JLin can finish better than Rondo. Rondo passes better. Rondo is not all that quick but is more savvy in handling ball and passing. I would take Parker, Rondo and JLin over Westbrook because I don't think Westbrook thinks well on the court. I would also take Parker and Rondo (either one, depending on the style of the team) over JLin at this point. Again, I really want to see JLin perform at a high level during playoffs before I want to even start comparing him to anyone.
DeleteBy the way, dear yanggg3, you have to teach your kid instead of crying to cuss back (I know JLin would disagree but that's one reason I do not like him as much, although I respect where he's coming from :)), because these days, no one is going to lynch him if he fights back. Others might disagree, but I would have no hesitation telling my kid to cuss back if someone called my kid "yellow chink", including "n888er" and "h888ey". On the other hand, if my kid ever calls someone names unprovoked, he will get it from me. I think KHuang and I are actually similar in this respect because I don't take no shit from anyone, and to hide behind some sort of racial superiority argument is a real coward. That's one of the reasons I like Charles Barkley because he tells it like it is.
Just one more comment, while I am at it. Realize that American Indians are "probably" Asians (I have no idea which Asians) having migrated to North America long time ago, so in some sense, if people want to argue this way, Asians were in North America first, before blacks and whites came here and mostly stole the land. There is a reason why Indians and Asians share their practice of using herbs and worshipping various animals or nature, i.e., shamanism. Therefore, if ever a white person says to me "go back to where you came from", I am going to say "We were here first." And I really mean that. If you study history, you will realize that Africans were one of the first immigrants to North America. Therefore, it just doesn't make sense to tell them or Asians to go back where you came from when we were first or at the same time European whites were here. For god's sake, a lot of North America territories belonged to Mexicans before they were stolen from them through unjustified wars.
DeleteNext time, I will stick to basketball, but yanggg3's story about her kids getting called names ticked me off. My sincere apologies if I offended anyone.
Deletehttp://bleacherreport.com/articles/1216679-nba-draft-2012-5-point-guard-prospects-already-better-than-jeremy-lin
ReplyDeleteCheck this out. KHuang, I know you have something to say about this. I DO TOO! I'll be with you on this 100%.
Let them know who the 5, maybe 10, PGs that Jeremy Lin is already better than. SMH.
I don't care much for those PG comparisons. Perhaps that may be because I do not follow college basketball. However, the characterisation of JLin who is "irresponsible" ball handler, forces shots, and struggles on defence is just bogus.
DeleteJlin's turnovers are on the high side, but obviously there has been improvement especially looking at his last 10 games before the injury. Any PG who is given the opportunity to run the offence will have high TOs. With two forwards who tend to hang around the top of the key drawing swiping hands, dribble penetration will tend to result in more TO's. Exacerbating the situation is the fact that Knicks do not move well without the ball to help the PG out, putting JLin in tough positions even though he has done a good job penetrating.
JLin may seem to attempt difficult shots, but they are not as difficult as they seem for someone as athletic and agile as JLin. He definitely does not attempt shots that there is no hope of making. The difficult shots he attempts all seem to be within rhythm and practiced. I would not call them forced shots which ball hogs tend to take.
JLin is very good on ball defender. This can be seen before and through his Linsanity days. Obviously, with the increasing offensive responsibilities, he can afford less energy into his stifling defensive style. Nevertheless, the on ball defence is very very good for a PG. He applies adequate on ball defence pressure, contends shots without fouling, has no trouble staying in front of his man, and more importantly deflects passes more than most PGs. Plus, with his size and strength, no one has successfully backed him down in the post yet. Perhaps he can use his size and strength on offence to abuse some weaker PGs.
His off ball defence is also excellent if not even better than his on ball defence. JLin in the earlier days may seem to have over-helped, leaving three point shooters open. However, this was due to spacing problems, and with more chemistry he was able to adjust and get back to his man while helping pressure big men in the post.
As added bonuses, JLin is very good at anticipating passes and making steals, as well as rebounding. Its a delight to see him boxing out big men resulting in either a rebound or a lose ball foul.
All these, on top of the facilitator, prolific socerer, and flashy open court finisher as the article admits, JLin is the all-round PG which teams should be clamoring for to build a team around.
I went on youtube and took a look at some of these point guards that were deemed "better" than Jeremy Lin.
DeleteJeremy Lin aside, I am not impressed with what I saw. While I haven't bothered to look at all the prospects, I'll go so far to say that 2011 Big East Player of the year Ben Hansbrough was far more NBA ready than any of these guys are, and Ben was undrafted.
If you combined Damien Lillard's quickness with Tony Wroten's heads up play without Lillard's ball hogging tendencies and Wroten's lack of athleticism, you would have a poor man's Jeremy Lin!
I am a "Talk is cheap, let's see results" kind of guy. If any of these guys (or any pg in the NBA, for that matter) can produce more than Jeremy Lin did in his historic start and subsequent gaudy record as a starter, I would be happy to call that player "better" than Lin. But if a player produces less than Lin does, I am not going to anoint that player as "better" than Lin.
When I evaluate players, I don't care about the name on the back of the jersey or what hype surrounds that player. I wanna see GAME.