Friday, April 6, 2012

"The Rise Of Jeremy Lin And The Undrafted"

Here is a great article by Marc Stein in his Weekend Dime. It gives you some hope that there are at least a few unbiased, intelligent, and knowledgeable sports writers out there.

Weekend Dime -- Jeremy Lin and the undrafted - ESPN

One of JLin's most impressive stat is his 4th quarter PER being 2nd in the league to Chris Paul and ahead of Derrick Rose, Kyrie Irving, Lebron James, and Kevin Durant. This was astutely pointed out by one of our members earlier this week. Also, as we've said here over and over, the Knicks will lock up Jeremy at the mid-level (around 5 million) for next year. Then in 2013, he'll be a unrestricted free-agent, likely commanding max money of close to 20 million per year and free to go wherever he wants.

Speaking of Kyrie Irving, after watching Irving and Ricky Rubio up close at the 2012 Rising Stars All-Star game and following them closely this season, we're sold on both. Rubio is basically a Jason Kidd clone. His defense is what has really surprised us. Kyrie Irving is a cross between Chris Paul and Derrick Rose. He and Jeremy will be dueling it out for years. We believe you're looking at 3 of the top young point guards today all with Hall of Fame level talent.

On a side note, we've felt that Jimmer was drafted way too high. There aren't many 6'1" shooting guards  who are lottery picks. He should have been picked late in the first round. He is basically a shooting specialist, who is not big enough or athletic enough to guard anyone in the NBA. If you compare the two, it's a tragedy that Jimmer was picked 10th, while Jeremy went undrafted.

128 comments:

  1. I'd rather compare Jeremy Lin to Daniel Orton.

    Daniel Orton was the Orlando Magic's 2010 1st round draft pick at #29. Even though he measured out at 6'8", he was projected as a center by NBA scouts that fawned over his University of Kentucky pedigree. Scouts raved about his physicality and potential, as he was 19 when he declared for the NBA draft.

    Orton had an extensive injury history in which he missed most of his senior year of high school and missed much of his freshman year at Kentucky. He averaged numbers that would impress any NBA scout: 3.3 points per game and 3.4 rebounds a game in 13.4 minutes a game.

    When NBA scouts were talking about making this guy a LOTTERY PICK, I thought it was a bad joke. Frankly, I felt that he was not even good enough to be a D1 player. Then Otis Smith drafts Orton in the first round and watches him play awfully while suffering constant injuries.

    I wrote elsewhere that there is no such thing as a second round draft bust, but I definitely would label Daniel Orton a first round draft bust due to the two year guaranteed contract that he earned.

    It utterly enrages me that a nonproducer like Orton can get a 2 year guaranteed 1st round contract while Jeremy Lin doesn't even get drafted.

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  2. Jeremy Lin finished in 9th Place for TIME MAGAZINE'S: 100 MOST INFLUENTIAL LIST.

    Which sucks, because last night he was in 6th place, so other candidates must have gotten a last minute rally in votes.

    BTW .... Why didn't anyone mention this TIME POLL on this website ?? We could have added him some more votes.

    Somebody really dropped the ball for the Jeremy Lin fan crowd :(

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  3. It's okay! He still top 10! I vote for him! Lin is first place in my heart!

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  4. Did he beat Tim Tebow in the poll ??? Please tell me that JLin beat out TEBOW !!! LOL !

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    1. Yes, Lin beats out Tebow!!!!! LOL

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    2. I think Lin should have been in the Time Top Five. With all of his Twitter and Facebook followers and the posters on this site he should have had more than 90,000 votes. Instead he only got 89,691 votes. I didn't find out about the Times poll until after it was over !!! BTW "Anonymous" got 400,000 votes, which I think was rigged by hackers.
      So if Jeremy is on the poll next year, he's at the height of his stardom, we need to rock the vote.

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    3. Yay! But the more important question is: Did Lin beat out Snooki from Jersey Shore!

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  5. Isaiah Thomas is another great story.

    He was "Mr. Irrelevant" (final pick in the draft) and he's only 5-9, but he's having a superb rookie year (his PER is currently 17.9). Thomas surpassed Fredette on the depth chart and then supplanted Tyreke Evans as starting PG.

    Of course, Keith Smart had no problem playing HIM as a rookie...

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    1. The New York Times - and various other outlets - assert that Lin worked like crazy to improve his game between his time with the Kings and now. Is that true?

      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/25/sports/basketball/the-evolution-of-jeremy-lin-as-a-point-guard.html?pagewanted=all

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  6. Remember how Jeremy Lin said he thought the best model for his game was Goran Dragic?

    Not sure if you guys are following the Rockets, but Goran Dragic is playing out of his mind right now. Over the last 10 games Dragic is shooting over 50% from the field, averaging 20 pts a game, and over 7 assists.

    Looks like Jeremy Lin is a pretty good evaluator of talent!

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    1. Too bad Dragic will command a higher salary than Jeremy this summer. He is also older than Jeremy. It's funny that now so many people jump on the Dragic bandwagon and rate him higher than Jeremy. But with Jeremy it's always sample size too small, coming down to the earth, being figured out etc all types of skepticism.

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    2. Gene: Imagine the two mirror-image combo guards, 6'3 left-handed Dragic and 6'3 right-handed Lin, playing together as a back-court, if the Rockets hadn't cut Lin? Dragic-Lin could have been what Ellis-Curry was supposed to be with Golden State.

      Cara: If you read the history of assessments made of Dragic's game, they are very similar, even eerily similar to how Lin has been assessed. Same praise, same criticisms. Many people, including myself, use Steve Nash to analogize Lin's career arc. But in terms of their games, Dragic is actually the most similar NBA player to Lin, as Lin assessed for himself. (Watch Dragic play and he looks like a more polished and experienced, left-handed, East European Lin.) You should be rooting for Dragic's success because his success would indicate Lin's future success. Dragic being "older than Jeremy" has something to do with having a larger "sample size" than Lin to award with a contract. When Lin has enough body of work, and he should develop his NBA resume faster than Dragic did, he'll get his just due.

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    3. When I watch Dragic play, he reminds me a lot of Nash and a little bit Jeremy.

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    4. I like the Lin, Dragic comparision. I remember when I first saw dragic on the Suns, I was thinking where is steve nash, is he hurt and who is this guy dragic? Then quickly realized he can flat out play. If dragic is a good sample size then it'd be interesting to see how much lin will get paid. Lin will definitely get paid more then dragic. Their play and guts have unspoken limitless potential. Both these guys will become very very scary players in the near future. I like also how Lin compared his game to Dwayne Wade. When Lin reaches that plateau it would be wonderful ti see.

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    5. Dragic does not appear to me to have the athletic explosiveness that Lin has.

      Even with that bad knee, Jeremy Lin seems to me like a faster springier and stronger Goran Dragic. At least that's what I'm seeing, and I could easily be wrong about this. Lin has an extra gear that shows up in 4th quarter play.

      Lin started getting real minutes in midseason. He thus did not have the fatigue that rotation players have. On the other hand, Jeremy Lin had never played real NBA minutes and thus is still learning the league. Next season, Lin will have a full summer to prepare his conditioning and game to play major minutes.

      We saw glimpses of what Lin could do with full health during the 7-1 stetch jn his first starts. I believe that Jeremy Lin has a lot more to show us athletically than he has already displayed.

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    6. Remember, this was before he even played a game in the NBA when he originally made the comparison. He was being modest. What do you think people would think if he compared himself to DWade without ever playing a game or being drafted? His numbers at his age are very comparable to DWades 36min stats at 23 yrs old. Goran's 36 min stats for the past 5 years are not even close to Jeremy's. Please don't compare Jeremy to Goran, who is a slightly above average player at this point in his career (17.8 this year, 14.5 career PER, 15 is an average player). Jeremy talks a lot about liking DWade without comparing his game to DWade. He really patterns his game after DWade. You guys need to learn Jeremy speak, and also realize he wants to be great, not good.

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    7. It's really hard to compare Goran Dragic to Jeremy Lin. They are the same size and play the same position, but that's about it. Goran is actually very quick and athletic, he went up for a two handed put back dunk... Forgot who it was against, but that is a very athletic move. He's also a good shot blocked for a PG.
      As far as Jlin comparisons go, he has a lot more experience under his belt, because he was playing in the Euroleagues since he was a teenager. He's also from the basketball obsessed country the Serbia, so he's never had to overcome doubts about his race.

      Dragic is shooting over 40% from 3-point land. A lot of that has to do with pro experience. Jlin is shooting around 34% from three, but that's a huge improvent over
      last season, and he can get better.

      Dragic drives left and right equally well and can finish with either hand probably because is naturally left handed. Lin needs to improve his left hand action, which he's working hard on. Again, it all comes with experience. Dragic was only average his rookie year.

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    8. @KHuang Neither Dragic nor Lin has elite NBA athleticism, but you're wrong about Lin being more athletic than Dragic. I've seen Dragic dunk several times, and he does it with two hands (I haven't seen Lin dunk two handed since college), and with a little more ease than Lin:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0qMVYaMmBw#t=25s
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0qMVYaMmBw#t=3m15s
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B06wbXeTv0
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nozJwrZQdjk
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XhhStFfJ-A#t=30s

      So yeah I like both guys, but the athleticism edge goes to Dragic. Lin is quick, but Dragic is slightly quicker. On top of that add Lin's knee injury and who knows how that will affect his athleticism.

      As far as attributes other than athleticism, they are very comparable. Both are fearless, both are crafty and know how to run pick and rolls, both are clutch. But Dragic is a better shooter and takes better care of the ball. On the other hand Lin is more aggressive and gets to the FT line more often, and is two years younger and has time to improve his game.

      I cheer for both guys, but if they played each other, I would cheer for Lin because I'm asian and I'm biased :). But if you asked me who was more athletic, objectively I'd have to say Dragic.

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    9. Lin accelerates faster than Wall, and.... Usain Bolt. He does have NBA elite athleticism.

      http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba...the-fast-lane/

      That being said, I do remember Dragic's block on Lin. Lin had a split second hesitation when he looked over his shoulder at Dragic on the break and that was enough for Dragic to get him.

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    10. I seriously doubt that athletic testing would reveal Dragic as faster than Lin.

      One block on Lin by Dragic does not make Dragic more athletic than Lin. I myself have blocked shots of players who were over a foot taller than me and could outrun me, but that doesn't make me more athletic than them.

      The reason Dragic doesn't drive as aggressively as Lin is because he CANNOT. Unlike Lin and John Wall who can get by any man in the NBA pff the dribble, Dragic has to pick his spots more because he cannot get by defenders at will. Both Lin and Wall cannot be stopped unless they are double teamed.

      The most telling statistic that shows Lin's athleticism is Lin's 4th quarter dominance. Lin simply keeps playing when other guys have run out of game. Other than Chris Paul, Lin is the best 4th quarter player in the ENTIRE NBA. Athleticism is the prime reason for that, and Dragic has never been at that level and never will be.

      Athleticism is not merely about dunking with two hands vs one hand. Were that the case, the slam dunk contest would determine the winner of the MVP award. Besides, Lin appears to me to be making astonishing athletic plays on defense that Dragic has never been able to make. I always see it coming, but it always astonishes me when Lin chases down a quick NBA All Star like Derrick Rose or Deron Williams and steals the ball from behind. The reason Lin makes those plays and Dragic cannot is because Lin closes the gap far more quickly than a guy with ordinary NBA athleticism like Dragic does.

      Teams double and triple team Lin because he can athletically shred any NBA defender. Even with Lin's knee injury, he still has to be doubled. The reason the Knicks are so good with Lin is because he draws so much defensive attention that teams cannot truly defend him.

      Remember that Dragic has just begun his stint as a starter. Also, we are at a time of year when teams are actively tanking in order to get a high draft pick. He also plays for a good coach in Kevin Mchale with a Rockets team with less superstar dysfunctionality. Once teams figure out that Dragic cannot beat guys off the dribble, they'll adjust their defensive schemes accordingly.

      I don't agree at all that Dragic is more athletic than Lin, based on the numbers and what I'm seeing in games even with Lin's knee injury.

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    11. BTW, good post achondroplasia.

      We do differ in one way. I'm Asian, but I'm NOT biased toward Lin because of that. I simply see Lin as one of the most athletic PGs I've ever seen in the NBA regardless of his color.

      I wish that athletic testing had been performed on a young Micheal "Sugar" Ray Richardson. My suspicion is that they'd test out as being nearly athletically identical to each other. I base my opinion on the similar way Lin and Sugar impacted the game on both ends in terms of numbers and what I see from both of them on the court. They even both have the same crossover to the left that ends in a right handed reverse layup on the left side of the hoop.

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    12. I honestly don't put too much stock in that BAM testing. It's done in a controlled environment that doesn't necessarily translate to games. You see this all the time in the NBA and NFL, workout warriors whose off the chart combine numbers mean little when they get on the field and play.

      I'm not saying Lin is a workout warrior or a bust, just that I wouldn't use those BAM numbers to conclude that Lin is FUNCTIONALLY more athletic than John Wall, Rose, etc when your eyeballs tell you otherwise. BAM testing tells you max speed in controlled conditions, but it doesn't tell you how often a player reaches that max speed during a game, when trying to blow by someone, or fighting over a screen, or what their average speed is during a game. BAM tells you "peak" speed and quickness, but to find out their "cruising" speed and quickness, you have to watch the games.

      Lin himself has admitted in interviews that he isn't an athletic freak by any means.

      To me Lin's success, much like Nash, will come from his intelligence, aggression, body control, skill, and clutchness more than his athleticism. If you watch other NBA guards, you can see by comparison that Lin is an adequate athlete, but not an elite one, which you would have to be to be on par with Wall, Rose, Westbrook, etc. I mean just google "Wall alley oop" and you'll see the types of plays that Lin won't be doing anytime soon or ever, but that's okay. Nash won MVP twice and he's no freak athlete.

      And just like "one block on Lin by Dragic does not make Dragic more athletic than Lin," likewise one block on Rose (who injured his groin on the play) by Lin does not make Lin more athletic than Rose.

      And I brought up one hand dunking vs two hand dunking because you can reach higher with one hand than you can with two. That's how max standing reach is measured, by reaching up with one hand. Thus dunking with two hands requires more vertical leap. Lin can barely dunk with one hand.

      Lin chased down Rose because 1) he had great help from the big 2) he was tenacious and didn't give up on the play. If you want to see elite athleticism on defense, watch Shumpert.

      And regarding teams tanking, that's laughable. Dragic has put up good numbers in two victories over OKC (one of them in OKC on the road) the Lakers twice (home and away), at Chicago, and home vs Memphis.

      Again, I'm not trying to knock Lin. I think both Lin and Dragic have the "it" factor. They are both ballers. But to say Lin is more athletic than Dragic is being blind, dishonest, biased, or some combination:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95MkKVC8nvg

      I've yet to see Lin dunk that easily.

      And Dragic is not even an elite athlete in NBA terms.

      NBA guards with elite athleticism do stuff like dunk ON people, in traffic, like this:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIzl_xDmjMg

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    13. "Athleticism is not merely about dunking with two hands vs one hand. Were that the case, the slam dunk contest would determine the winner of the MVP award."

      Who said that slam dunk winners = MVP? LOL nobody says that.

      What is true is that slam dunk winners = athleticism.

      All I'm saying is Dragic is demonstrably more athletic than Lin right now. The ease and height with which someone dunks is a very good indicator of athleticism.

      That does not mean Dragic is necessarily the better player than Lin. For example, Steve Nash isn't as athletic as Dragic, but Nash is 10x the player Dragic is.

      Whether Lin is better than Dragic or vice-versa is debateable. Athleticism is just one component of that debate. Age is another. Lin is two years younger and has more upside. I would probably take Lin. Dragic may haved maxed out his potential already. But that does NOT mean Lin is more athletic than Dragic! :D

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    14. Goran Dragic is officially listed as 6'-4" (Without shoes) with a 6'-7" wingspan, compared to Lin's 6'-3" and 6'-5" wingspan. Plus, Goran's shoulder height is probably a few inches higher, he doesn't have a very long neck. It also says that Goran has a 37-1/2" vertical leap, coming out of the draft which can be improved with training.

      So yes, Goran has a slight advantage in that he can reach higher a few more inches.

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    15. Don't call me blind, dishonest, or biased. If you want to get into a flame war with me, I'll go after you too.

      I am from Phx and have watched Goran Dragic fail more than he has succeeded.

      He is nowhere in Steve Nash's class as an athlete even though he gets up higher and probably runs faster. Dragic doesn't compare to Nash in stamina, durability, body balance, or physical explosiveness.

      Nash IS a freak athlete. To be able to be as effective as he is at his age is unheard of. Other higher jumping and faster running athletes do no have that kind of athletic longevity. It is not all due to his work ethic, like a lot of people believe.
      You CANNOT disregard athletic testing. A guy like Lin knows how to apply his ELITE athleticism to win games. Goran Dragic likely does not have that level of athleticism, and that is why he has not made the same impact as Lin has despite Dragic's vastly greater experience. Athleyic testing reveals realities about players that people like you cannot see. It's MONEYBALL.

      You put too much value on dunking as a measure of athleticism. Just because a guy can dunk with two hand opposed to one doesn't mean he can blow by defenders or outrun people or even outrun them. Jeremy Lin blocked John Wall's shot in summer league, won a jump ball against him, contained him defensively, and beat him off the dribble. Not surprisingly, Lin tested as being not that different from Wall despite guys like you claiming Wall was a vastly superior athlete.

      I accept that Dragic is probably a more willing dunker than Lin. But I feel that Lin's superior physical burst is why he has been a far more productive and BETTER player. That's my opinion and I'm not going to call you "blind, dishonest, or biased" for disagreeing.

      On this blog, jlinfan#1 posted a picture of Lin dunking with his hand all the way at the top of the box. Not surprisingly, Lin blocks shots and grabs rebounds at an NBA level.

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    16. edit: "even outJUMP".

      With teams tanking, that can either help good teams with providing extra energy or drag them down with poor play. It goes both ways without rhyme or reason.

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    17. To me, elite athleticism is not and shouldnt be a requirement to play in the nba. We're barking up the wrong tree if we're constantly scouting for supreme athleticism, that's exactly the predicament we found Jeremy in. It is also where the talent evaluators defaults to and miss on Jeremy Lin. The thing that should count most is do you have a repetoire of moves you can count on time after time and excel in? Is your brain in the right place at the right time in moments of turmoil? Are you a leader when it matters? There aee countless other facets of the game that should matter more. What it boils down to is it is a team sport. It is not like baseball and football where supreme individual talents adds up. The more the better. I dont think basketball works that way, cuz the court is only so small. And it accomodate only so many supremr athletes on the court.

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    19. Watching Dragic now against the Kings. What I can see is that his foot speed/lateral quickness is not even near the realm of Jeremy's. He got blown by a few times already in 1 on 1 situations. Not sure about top speed, vert or whatever but in terms of quickness/agility he can't hang with Lin imo. Also, if you look at stats most of Goran's scoring comes from beyond 10 feet, meaning jumpers. Jeremy's buckets mostly are within 10 feet or at the rim. Jeremy is simply better at getting to the basket, and to do that you need elite quickness/agility.

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    20. How come dystopia1980 can say the same things I do and not get called "blind, dishonest, or biased?" by achondroplasia?

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    21. O hai guyz, been away from the computer. Don't worry KHuang, Dystopia is just as "blind, dishonest, and biased" as you are.

      Happy?

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    22. NO.

      How RUDE.

      I was hoping that you weren't just another flameboy posting here only in order to flame others, but I was WRONG.

      Since you want to come at me, I encourage you to keep flaming me. And I'm SOO SICK of fake Asians pretending that they're Asian on thid board.

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  8. Agreed on Jimmer. His best model would be Mark Price, but Price was a PG that could shoot and Jimmer isn't a PG. IMO, he's the next Adam Morrison, a big time scorer in college that just didn't have an NBA game.

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  9. Dragic's stats as a starter this year are impressive! Averaging 18.1 pts, 8.8 ast, 1.9 stl, 52.4% FG, 44% 3pt, 3.5 reb. Still, he does not get to the foul line as often as JLin. The majority of Dragic's layups are left-handed. Although he can finish right-handed, no one is saying it's his weak side. Yet, I've seen JLin finished left-handed numerous times, but many see it as one of JLin's biggest weakness.

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    1. The most disgusting thing is that Jeremy posted similar stats as a starter in more games and better season stats, yet everyone is saying that Dragic stats are better than Jeremy's.

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    2. Doubters gonna doubt no matter what.

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  10. The poster named "Unknown" is a clown. Stupid bigoted racists like Stephen A Smith and Floyd Mayweather will NEVER admit Lin is good no matter what Lin does, ever. It's how prejudice and confirmation bias works, your preconceived ideas ignore what you see with your eyes or what the numbers say. Lin has faced this at every level of his life. He never belonged in the D-League, he never belonged at Harvard - if he was black he would have gotten tons of D1 scholarships from elite basketball schools then been drafted top10 in the NBA.

    Even after the past 2 months you have idiots like Stephen A yelling that Lin is a marginal player at best, even though Lin leads the Knicks in PER and adjusted plus minus, and ranks top 10 among guards in multiple metrics including 2nd highest 4th quarter PER in the entire league.

    In Lin's 26 games since Feb4, his PER is over 20, he averaged 17.5 points, 7.5 assists, 2 steals a game, on 46% shooting. Under Mike Woodson Lin averaged 16 points, 7 assists, 3 turnovers a game. He is NOT a system player. Mike D'Antoni went 8-1 with only Lin, and won under 40% of his other games. Mike Woodson is 6-1 with Lin, 3-2 without Lin. Even including Carmelo's despicable tank job going 2-8, the Knucks with Jeremy Lin are 16-10 with him and sub-.400 without him.

    Jeremy Lin's team played GREAT defense (best in the league) before Carmelo came back and quit on his team to get his coach fired. During their 8-1 stretch they held opponents to only 90 a game on 40% shooting, beating the Mavs, Lakers, Hawks, Jazz, and TWolves. Lin also played great defense during Woodson's start, when they put up great team defense stats because Carmelo finally stopped quitting. It isn't Jeremy Lin's fault when the forwards behind him play zero defense off screens and pick and rolls.

    Morons like Stephen A Smith are just like those racist characters in movies like The Express or Jackie Robinson where the sport's majority race feels threatened and attacks the player breaking barriers,

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    1. Hmmm. Stephen A. Smith rips black players all the time. Is he being racist - against his own race - when he does so? As far as Floyd Mayweather goes, if Jeremy Lin were black, white, Hispanic, or even Native American (i.e. Sam Bradford), it would have been a story but not LINSANITY. Mayweather never said that Lin wasn't a good player, only that Lin received much more attention than a black athlete with the same accomplishments would have, and this is a fact that is beyond dispute.

      "Jeremy Lin's team played GREAT defense (best in the league) before Carmelo came back and quit on his team to get his coach fired."

      You can't base the history of the world on a 9 game sample. Over the entirety of his career that includes several NBA teams, D'Antoni's defenses have been horrible. And this season with the exception of those 9 games the defense was terrible also. You can't blame Anthony's quitting on the team for this, because D'Antoni's defenses were bad before Lin got into the starting lineup, and were bad before Anthony joined the Knicks in the first place.

      If your position is that Jeremy Lin made the Knicks a great defensive team: why weren't the Suns WITH STEVE NASH AT POINT GUARD? Is Lin that much better as a defender than Nash?

      You guys certainly are going overboard in your defense of a guy who started Toney Douglas and then went to a 2 shooting guard lineup of Shumpert and Fields FOR MONTHS instead of playing Lin, and for a guy who was still trying to replace Lin with Deron Williams even after Lin (temporarily) saved his job. Had D'Antoni prevailed in his war with Anthony, Lin would be back on the bench with Deron Williams getting his usual 36 minutes a game. Or maybe they would have done some sort of 2 point guard lineup to get Lin minutes, who knows, but in any case it would NOT have been good for Lin.

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    2. In Lin's rookie year, he was #2 in the NBA of steals and blocked shots per minute despite a small sample size.

      This year Lin is one of the steals leaders again. Also, the Knicks defensive numbers have been dramatically better with Lin than without him.

      During the 7 game winning streak, Lin took an already powerful Knick defense (led by Dantoni and Woodson) and made it even more so. That was halted when Carmelo Anthony returned. True or not, Carmelo Anthony took the blame for that.

      Given Lin's propensity to improve team defenses while piling up gaudy defensive.stats, it would be interesting what would happen to the Knicks defense if Steve Nash signed with the Knicks and.bumped Lin to another team.

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  11. knicks looking great against the bulls. playing defense, moving without the ball, and being unselfish. melo shooting well too.

    i'd rather play chicago than the heat in the first round. maybe better to stay 8th seed :)

    anyone else out there going through jeremy lin withdrawal? hope he gets healed up soon

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    1. Carmelo trying really hard to prove that he is a superstar and he can win without Lin. ;-p

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    2. Let's face it, this "Iso Melo" may work in the regular season and make Melo very happy but I doubt it will get the team far in the playoffs. Just check out Woodson's records in Atlanta. It's the same thing.

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    4. When teams have time to adjust during the course of a playoff series, iso plays every time down the floor will be shut down and exposed.

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  12. can you see lin on the bench tonight ? i miss him ...

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  13. Rats. Looks like Jeremy Lin won't make it back for the first round of the playoffs. And they have no shot at advancing in the playoffs without Lin even if Stoudemire comes back, so there won't be a second round.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/knicksblog/knicks_lin_says_unlikely_round_playoffs_f8hI7l2afn01cxdzW7KiiP

    I was really hoping to see Lin get some playoff experience this year, and hopefully the return of "Linsanity." Oh well, it will have to wait for next year. I wonder who the coach will be? A lot of folks like Phil Jackson, but is his triangle (triple post) offense a good fit for Lin when it has historically favored 6'6" or 6'7" type players like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Ron Harper and Glen Rice? A lot of other folks are talking up John Calipari, but I still remember his failing with the New Jersey Nets (which includes his using a racial slur against a Hispanic reporter during his time there) plus Calipari's system has always favored centers and power forwards.

    In any event, I hope that whoever coaches the Knicks next year will make the beating that Lin has been getting without intentional fouls/ejections/suspensions by the offending players a public issue, and shames the referees and the NBA office into action. Looking at some of those hits he has taken on YouTube ... it is really egregious, and goes far beyond the "welcome to the NBA" thing. NBA players will do whatever the referees allow them to, and it takes fouls, ejections and fines to get them to stop. Some say that Lin just needs to work on his outside shot so he will expose himself to less punishment but that's bogus: Mookie Blaylock wasn't much of an outside shooter, neither was Kenny Anderson, and none of those guys got pounded like Lin is getting. Since the Knicks coaches, Woodson et al, never stood up for Lin while he was taking the beating that ultimately ended his season, getting a coach in place that WILL stand up for his players is a top priority.

    Another thing: Jeff Teague is burning it up for the Hawks right now. They SURE COULD HAVE USED HIS SPEED, ATHLETICISM AND DEFENSE LAST YEAR! (Teague is no Jeremy Lin of course, but still the best point guard the Hawks have had IN YEARS.) Face it: Woodson was wrong not to play Teague more. I was a Woodson backer in the context of the Melo-D'Antoni feud, but now that it is done - and so is the season apparently, because the best scenario is now getting swept in the first round of the playoffs - I am thinking that the Knicks can do better and probably should. Yes, I have changed my tune, I admit it. Watching Melo take as many shots as the rest of the team combined without seeing him get benched for refusing to rotate the ball will kind of do that to you.

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    Replies
    1. I bet Woodson will stay because he sure makes Carmelo Anthony a very happy man. It's the same tactic he used in Atlanta with Joe Johnson aka "Iso Joe". But ultimately this tactic was also his downfall along his lack of success in playoffs and not playing Teague, despite improving regular season records every year. Looks like he is repeating the EXACT same thing here in NY. I am quite worried about Lin next season under Woodson.

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    2. Melo scores a lot (28 ppg) since Lin and Amare are out. Which leads to the question: Can Melo produce in an offense that is based on Lin/Amare/Chandler pick and rolls?

      Apparently the answer is no. Carmelo does not play well in any pick and roll type offense. He doesn't move very well off the ball. He needs to ball in his hands in order to create. Which leads to another question:

      Will Jeremy Lin have to change his game to suit Anthony (i.e. become a spot up shooter, less penetration off pick and rolls.) ?

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    3. @Cara:

      Here is the deal: the "Iso Joe" thing was actually justifiable in Atlanta because the Hawks really were a marginally talented team. Even had Woodson started Teague, it would have had to remain a Joe Johnson centered offense because the rest of the team had limited and/or unreliable offensive games, especially Josh Smith. So, focusing the offense around Johnson and then playing defense was the most likely route to success.

      As much as I like the fact that the Knicks are playing better defense, unlike Woodson's Hawks, even with Melo and Stoudemire out the Knicks have guys that can score. They just aren't getting the touches that they need, and it is frustrating. There is no need to cater to Anthony, who granted is an All-Pro but still nowhere near the best player in the NBA. I can think of 10 guys that I would rather have than Anthony easily.

      I don't know. I still think that the common claim that Woodson didn't like Lin, was trying to undermine him, and especially the claim that he is some anti-Asian bigot is beyond the pale, because there is no evidence that those charges are true. But there are other, basketball-related reasons to want a coaching change that have nothing to do with Woodson allegedly being part of some black plot to keep Asian athletes down. I am going to have to eat crow, admit that I was wrong, and start rooting for a coach who can win championships with this team.

      However, I still say that the Knicks are one of the RARE teams that have 3 very good frontcourt players (All-Stars at small and power forward and a decent center that can score and rebound) and it would simply be bad basketball not to take advantage of that just so Lin "can have his own team." Come up with a system that exploits the talent of the big men, and let Lin lead the NBA in assists (and still score plenty in the process). It worked all those years with Magic Johnson and the Lakers so it would work with the Knicks too. Keep in mind: though Johnson never led the Lakers in scoring, he is still pretty much the only one that people remember from those teams. He even became a bigger star than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. I just don't want to see the Knicks do what the Suns have been trying and failing to do for the past 25 years (before D'Antoni, it was those Paul Westphal teams).

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    4. @Whitman:

      "Can Melo produce in an offense that is based on Lin/Amare/Chandler pick and rolls?"

      It wouldn't be Lin/Amare/Chandler pick and rolls. It would be Lin/Melo/Amare pick and rolls with Chandler being more of a "garbage man" type near the basket. It would also be Melo in isolations where he would have the option of either scoring or passing (including to Lin). And there would be PLENTY of Lin penetrations to either score or kick it out to whoever is open.

      Melo is a gifted scorer with a diverse offensive game. He would be effective in any number of offenses. The same is true of Lin. He himself has said that even though he preferred D'Antoni's system because it was ideal for him, he could be very effective running any number of offenses as a passer and scorer.

      We have to remember that when Woodson was initially hired, Lin and Melo were co-existing just fine on the court ... both were scoring in the teens on average and the team was winning. There is no reason why they can't go back to that.

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    5. But there is no doubt that the only offensive set Woodson knows is isolation of his so called superstar, by any chance there is a double team kick out to open shooters, as evident by his past in Atlanta and what he is employing now here in NY. I doubt Lin can fourish in this offensive set. By no means I want Lin be stuck in a bad team like John Wall in Wizards. I just don't see Woodson's type of offense can best use Lin's talents, especially seeing that how he catering he is to Carmelo Anthony.

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    6. To unknown,
      It's clear though Woodson is in favor of one on one plays and one on one players. He hardly really run any pick and roll or any other sets. Not only Anthony, do you not see how he also favors JR Smith over Landry Fields?
      As for the offense you mentioned under Woodson with Lin, well from I read, they were still mostly running the MDA offense then because Woodson has yet to have practice time to implement his own offense. They won games due to the increase of defensive intensity, not offense. I bet with more practice time and a training game, the true Woodson offense (which actually is a lot of one on one iso) will be fully implemented.

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    7. Now if Woodson stops treating Lin WORSE than he treats a rookie and stops badmouthing Lin, I'll back off my racism claim.

      Coaches like Woodson shouldn't treat their best players like Lin worse than they treat their worst players.

      C'mon unknown. Call me out so that I can go against you some more.

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    8. @Cara:

      Oh, I meant that there is no reason why the Knicks can't go back to a situation where Lin and Melo (and Stoudemire and the rest) coexist. Both Melo and Lin would have to sacrifice a bit (with Lin I keep going back to the Magic Johnson comparison because Johnson could have easily led the NBA in scoring) but it would be for the greater good.

      I just have come to the opinion that it would be far better for them to coexist with someone other than Woodson as head coach. I wish (former Pistons coach) Chuck Daly was still alive. His system would have been great for the talent that the Knicks currently have.

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    9. KHuang:

      I do not wish to call you out or go against you. But if you are looking for that, please feel free to go to BET.com or BlackVoices.com and you will find PLENTY of blacks who believe that whites (and Asians!) are against them and be able to go back and forth all you want. Like I wrote earlier, I don't like it when blacks, Asians, whites, Hispanics or anyone does it. This is not to say, of course, that discrimination against Asians does not exist. It does, big time. There should be lots more Asian Fortune 500 CEOs, there should be more Asians as department chairs and presidents of the universities that Asians bring in all that research money and win Nobel Prizes more, and certainly there should be more Asian mayors, governors, federal and state judges etc. and how Hollywood depicts Asians is totally bogus. But I still don't see how Woodson's treating Lin BETTER than the guys who let him sit on the bench and cut him from the team and treating him BETTER than he treated Jeff Teague makes Woodson a racist.

      Lin is a very good player, but there were legitimate reasons not to just hand the franchise over to him. As great as Lin has been, he has yet to get real minutes over a full NBA season, and jumping him to the front of the line would have been unfair to the guys who have. Guys get the lead role after they prove themselves, and it is like that not only in sports but the business world too. And as I have said in the past, the only reason why D'Antoni did was because his system features the point guard no matter who the point guard is. If D'Antoni was a believer in Lin, he would have played Lin much earlier, especially instead of going with that ridiculous setup where both Shumpert and Fields were starting and before that going with Toney Douglas. And also, he wouldn't have tried to replace Lin with Deron Williams even during Linsanity. So if Woodson is a racist, D'Antoni was an even bigger one, and the coaches and GMs of the teams that released Lin before this season even more so. The only reason why you are singling Woodson out is because he sided with Melo, not because of anything that he has actually done to Lin, because if Lin was healthy, he would still be starting.

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    10. I understand what you meant but...
      1. Magic Johnson's Lakers do not run iso offense so the comparison is irrelevant.
      2. I can bet that Woodson will stay as coach because even the team doesn't make the playoffs or go out in early round with a built in excuse of injuries. And I bet that Anthony will fully endorse him. And if Anthony could get a coach fired, sure he could get a coach hired.
      3. I don't believe that Anthony is a selfish player, far from it. But his problem with coexisting with Lin is that he is at best at iso, not running any other sets. And he truely believe that the best way of winning is to let him score a lot of pts. Actually he did have some success in Denver playing this way. IMO Anthony is best surrounded by some pure shooters and hard nose rebounders and defenders who can do all the dirty work for him. He doesn't really need a PG like Lin. A PG who can dribble the ball up and spot up shoot is enough for a Melo-centric offense, like a Billups and that's why he is the only PG he had most success with.

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    11. @Cara:

      1. They didn't run an iso-based offense, but they did give Kareem, James Worthy, Jamaal Wilkes and their other big men plenty of opportunities to do their thing.

      2. Question: suppose the Knicks had never traded for Melo in the first place? Answer: D'Antoni gets fired a long time ago. Question: what if Linsanity never occurred? Answer: D'Antoni gets fired before the All-Star break. Saying that Anthony "got D'Antoni fired" fails to take into account that D'Antoni was in major trouble in his own right because of all the losing. The folks who wanted the history of D'Antoni's coaching career (with the Knicks and in general) to begin with Linsanity aren't being fair. The truth is that Jeremy Lin benefits from having a better coach, because if the Knicks win an NBA title or three, Jeremy Lin becomes the most popular athlete on the planet by far.
      3. I don't see an "either/or" thing here. I don't think that Melo is good enough to carry a team offensively: his scoring percentage is too low. A team with Carmelo Anthony scoring 26 points a game - basically his career average - isn't going anywhere. (He's only gotten past the first round of the playoffs once in his career.)

      I say reduce his output to 18-20 points a game. Reduce his number of shots, but increase his field goal percentage. Give him SOME isolations - which he clearly merits - but do a lot of other things. Give Melo his touches, but make sure that A) Lin is running the offense, not Melo and B) that everybody else - including Lin - gets involved offensively. It is certainly possible, because lots of teams have implemented it before.

      "And he truely believe that the best way of winning is to let him score a lot of pts."

      Ummm ... guys like that are selfish.

      "He doesn't really need a PG like Lin."

      He does if he wants to win a title. Melo isn't Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant. He can't be "the system" but only part of a system, even if he is the #1 option in it. (There is a difference between centering an offense around a guy and having your best scorer be the #1 guy in a structured offense.)

      If Melo is unwilling to go along with it, then dump him, because the Knicks aren't going to win a title with him and neither is anybody else. They have a bunch of other good pieces and really would have to only replace him with another small forward who can score. But I think (hope) that Melo would choose winning in the playoffs over scoring 25 points a game.

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    12. I distance myself from unknown's statement that I should go on BET lookong for racial fights.

      I live and work and love people of all ethinicities. I shall not stoop to unknown's level by antagonizing those folks.

      Nor will I falsely pose myself as an Asian in order to flame real Asians, as unknown has.

      Unlike unknown who thinks Jeremy Lin does not belong in D1 let alone NBA, I remain adamant that Lin is a STAR based on his production. Even his coach's media putdowns won't change that.

      But I shall not back down when racial haters like unknown come after me using race as a weapon. I will keep defending myself and fighting as long as they keep flaming me.

      Like me, Jeremy Lin will never quit in the face of racism.

      Delete
  14. Wow. This Bulls game is eerily like the Indiana game, where the Knicks got a lead only to let it collapse. Yep. The Knicks need Lin back. Badly. If they had Lin, they beat the Bulls, the Pacers, and probably even the Hawks. Oh well. Woodson should have spoken up about the beating that Lin was taken, and gotten the refs and the league to do something about it. I am certain that the next coach will do better.

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  15. Another thing: Derrick Rose has 25 points - and counting - despite this being his first game back after missing 12 due to injury. I wonder if the media analysts and fans are going to criticize the defense of Baron Davis and others? Just a thought ...

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    1. Chicago choked the FTs... lol

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    2. they are not as good as lin at clutch time ...

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    3. I have this bad feeling that Knicks are going to get a cold dose of reality on Tuesday...Playing a DRose that is obviously rusty and a Bulls that's trying to re-integrate him as the main offensive option, and barely edging past in OT...Tuesday is going to be ugly. DRose finished with 29...I'm not expecting Knicks to win on Tuesday, but today's win was necessary to not fall out of 8th. If they can beat Bucks/Celtics/Wizards in the next 5 games assuming they lose to Bulls on Tuesday and Heat, they should be able to hold on to 8th and we may get to see JLin in the playoffs...I don't think Bucks will win on Monday that's for sure.

      This was a morale booster for Knicks sure enough, but it can come crashing down just as fast.

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    4. Do you think they played fake ball tonight to let Knicks go playoff?

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  16. Looks like Anthony will be the ultimate hero lol. Well done. Lin and Amare better not play again lol.

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    Replies
    1. They are lucky. They were playing at home, and Rose clearly isn't 100% yet. Perhaps the luck will continue ... who knows. It is good to see Jeffries back in the lineup though ...

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    2. Actually last time bulls vs knicks, Lin also had a good play. If melo could have 80% of today performance on their last matchup, they would have won that game already. Hope they won't say 'knicks pass bulls without jeremy lin' ... haiz ....

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    3. @sisleyverba:

      "Hope they won't say 'knicks pass bulls without jeremy lin'"

      They will, but that is not such a bad thing. When was the last time anybody said "Knicks win without Mike Bibby" or "Knicks win without Baron Davis" or "Knicks win without Toney Douglas" or "Knicks win without Josh Harrelson"? Lin's absence is only noticed because he is recognized as a good player, and is certainly better than the alternative.

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  17. Replies
    1. GG...melo came through

      can't wait for lin to come back though

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  18. Gotta give credit to Anthony. Talk about singlehandedly. He probably really plays better without Lin and Amare.

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    Replies
    1. yea, great game with melo, but he can't carry that burden every night

      i still hope amare, melo, chandler, and lin can make it work

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    2. yea, great game with melo, but he can't carry that burden every night

      i still hope amare, melo, chandler, and lin can make it work

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    3. i don't think 'he will plays better without Lin' is valid. Lin din't join knicks before Feb but knicks result was awful. He may be better without Amare because their role may have some conflict.

      I try not to read twitter now.. everyone keep saying 'Melo lead knicks to win bulls without jeremy' and keep saying 'who is jeremy lin' now .. so mean. I really wish Lin don't need to carry so many racist gossip and bias criticism.

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    4. @Cara:

      Considering the losses to Indiana and Atlanta - and the fact that they barely pulled out a 1 point win in OT at home against a Bulls team that wasn't 100% - Melo may play better without Lin and Amare, but the Knicks certainly don't! I hope that Melo realizes that.

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    5. A player can single handedly win a games, but teams win Championships. Melo's game today demonstrated that.

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    6. I think Melo and Amare get in each other's way a bit, but disagree about him being better without Lin. Before Jeremy went down with injury Melo was in a big shooting slump, so his poor play during that stretch really had nothing to do with Jeremy being on the court. If anything Melo got a lot more open jumpers than he gets now due to Jeremy drawing attention, he just couldn't make them.

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  19. The Knicks still lose 80% of their games when Melo-noma shoots 20 times or more a game.

    They would have lost again today, their 2nd epic collapse in 3 games, had Derrick Rose or Noah not bricked multiple free throws in the 4th quarter and overtime.

    There is a huge body of evidence that shows that ISO-ball is the LEAST efficient type of offense in the NBA. Melo is ONLY good at ISO-ball. He doesn't cut well, he doesn't move well without the ball. He needs the ball in his hands and 4 teammates standing around watching him.

    By the way, Melo hit 2 nice shots today but overall he is NOT a clutch player. His points-efficiency-per-shots in the 4th quarter of games is one of the WORST. He scores about 0.5 points per shot with 5 minutes left in close games, it's terrible. The league best are Chris Paul and Durant, who put up about 1.10 points per shot late in close games.

    Melo will be totally overhyped again today which will mask the fact that he's one of the least clutch and most inefficient basketball players in the 4th quarter.

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    Replies
    1. Don't go overboard, OK? How many NBA teams are going to beat the Pacers and the Bulls when they are missing 2 of their 3 best players?

      "Melo is ONLY good at ISO-ball. He doesn't cut well, he doesn't move well without the ball. He needs the ball in his hands and 4 teammates standing around watching him."

      False. Melo has a lot of offensive skills. He just doesn't want to play in an offensive system that marginalizes them. The guy doesn't want to be Boris Diaw to Lin's Steve Nash because he is twice as good as Boris Diaw. So sue him.

      An offensive system where Lin, Melo, Amare and everybody else can get the opportunities that their abilities merit exists. The Knicks just need to hire a guy who will implement it.

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    2. we can't deny melo is good, he has been proving himself. However, he is really a very selfish star. He just want himself to be the only star. He could not stand Lin outshine him on Feb. Now it is a time for him to prove himself. He has been playing very well since then. However I still believe basketball is a 'team' game, not a 'lonely star' game.

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    3. Stars like Carmelo Anthony SHOULD be selfish.

      The ball rotates to the players that can consistently produce. Anthony is one of those players, and so is Lin.

      When Lin and Anthony played together, they destroyed opponents. That is what I want to see happen as soon as Lin gets back.

      I personally don't believe that there is all that much friction between Lin and Anthony. What they are going through is what every NBA team goes through on a daily basis.

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    4. Carmelo should not be selfish. If he does, the Knicks cannot go far in the playoffs.

      Carmelo is a talented player and has proven he can produce. He is entitled to expect to be a central piece of a team.

      However, he should not be selfish in the sense that he only plays well when he is the only central piece of the team.

      Championship teams has a centre with multiple central pieces. Melo cannot be selfish in the sense that he flops when there are other central pieces (ie Amare and Lin).

      Melo's selfishness will look good in the regular season, but it is too easy to figure out and stop in the playoffs.

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    5. KHuang has a point. here are some clips from the hard fought 76ers game that show a small glimpse of what's possible when the team works together:

      1) check out this sweet play that involves all three stars. it starts of with a crisp entry pass by jlin to melo, who then does a no look touch pass to an open stat (2:58-3:32)
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7ICoHolZIk&t=2m58s

      2) jeremy does a sweet behind the back crossover and makes a move toward the basket. if you watch closely, right when melo senses what lin is going to do melo puts his body on lin's defender and sets a beautiful screen that frees lin for a clear path to the basket. you appreciate what melo does more in slow mo (3:45-4:25)
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7ICoHolZIk&t=3m45s

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    6. Yes Gene, thanks for understanding what I've been trying to say all along.

      When you have 3 "selfish" scorers that pass the ball out of traps, it is great to watch and hard to beat.

      If anything, the Knicks need another "selfish" scorer at the 2 spot. Lin can't battle backcourts by himself, though I love how he brings out the best in JR Smith who has been unfairly maligned most of his career.

      I remember that incredible Hawks teams.from the 80s with Doc Rivers, Reggie Theus, Dominique Wilkins, Kevin Willis, and Moses Malone. That team was totally fun to watch and had no ego problems. They couldn't win big because they had no bench.

      If there's anything I wish I wasn't missing with Lin out, it is the fluid team play of the sort posted by Gene that destroyed opponents so badly that the starters could sit out entire 4th quarters.

      Delete
  20. A win is a win.

    A win for the Knicks is NOT a loss for the injured Lin. Similarly, the Bulls are still the regular season team to beat.

    So far, I feel Mike Woodson is doing as good a job he can with the roster. He has done nothing to suggest that another coach could come in and do a better job.

    Similarly, it's good to see Rose back. I really like the Chicago Bulls and want to see them do well. They need not just Rose but all their players to play their best.

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  21. It isn't Melo's offense that was the problem. Yes, he plays much better as the focal point, but the real problem was his defense.

    If Melo just gave some effort on defense while Jeremy and Amare were there, there's no way the Knicks would have lost 6 in a row. They would have gone 3-3 (Celtics, Bucks, Bulls).

    Anyway, I'm glad the Knicks are winning. I still believe Jeremy will be healthy for the playoffs...including the first round. If you read between the lines, he's clearly being conservative so as not to be distracting.

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/7789095/new-york-knicks-jeremy-lin-feels-good-doubts-return-first-round

    "After about 1 1/2 to 2 weeks is when you can see how well you're doing...I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic I guess,"

    Even after he reiterates six weeks, he qualifies that by saying it takes 1.5-2 weeks to have a good idea.

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    Replies
    1. Yeah, hopefully, JLin will be ready for the first round of the playoffs, if the Knicks make it.

      If not, the season is probably over, as it's doubtful the Knicks can beat Miami or Chicago if that's who they get in the first round.

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    2. 6 weeks is the average recovery time for NBA players from meniscus surgery, but the +/- range is huge. It wouldn't be unprecedented for Lin to return a month earlier or a month later than the 6 week target.

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    3. Anthony's reputation is that he can do everything - when he wants. I'm not surprised he's comfortable at PF. Anthony was very good as the Redeem Team's PF and he has Chandler backing him at C.

      Anthony has no choice but to play hard now. He obviously dogged it to get D'Antoni fired. NBA stars are allowed 1 passive-aggressive power play, but only 1 (per season anyway). Anthony played his trump card and now it's on him to show he was right in forcing D'Antoni out.

      Anthony also knows that if he can carry the Knicks with Lin and Stoudemire out, he wins the team alpha-dog contest. Anthony heard everything that was said about Lin when the Knicks won without him and Stoudamire. He wants all of that said about him.

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  22. Whatever happens with Anthony, Lin will come out ahead this season with the body of work he established before the knee injury.

    If the Knicks make it to the play-offs and last long enough for Lin to come back, which implies Anthony and the team will have played very well without Lin, then Lin will get his 1st invaluable taste of heightened NBA play-off basketball, even if in a drastically reduced role.

    If Anthony plays too well to consider Lin a savior-in-waiting, but the Knicks don't make it far enough for Lin to come back this season, then that implies the Knicks still need help for Anthony, and Lin is reasonably priced, available help when the Knicks have limited options.

    If, in the 2nd to worst case, Knicks management and Anthony conclude he plays better without Lin and another point guard (eg, Nash) should be pursued with the team's limited cap space, then Lin gets to choose his next team as a free agent with much improved standing.

    Playing in Anthony's shadow is not a bad thing for Lin at this point of his career. Lin needs at least 1 more year of seasoning, preferably with play-off experience, before it's his time to be an NBA team's centerpiece. Even as a role player, assuming he gets the reps, Lin can get the seasoning he needs with play-off-bound Knicks team that features Anthony.

    The worst case is Lin doesn't play, either because he has a Brandon-Roy-esque chronic injury or the Knicks hold onto Lin but demote him to DNPs. Chronic injury aside, I don't see any current Knicks PG playing well enough to keep Lin on the bench. And if the Knicks decide the PG position must be upgraded from Lin, they likely can't re-sign Lin and pursue another free agent PG. If the Knicks let Lin go, then Lins wins by gaining the power to choose the team that will use him the best. Teams will want him: at what it will cost to sign Lin if the Knicks let him go, his risk/reward will be very favorable.

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    Replies
    1. Of course we and Lin himself should be very satisfied with this season even he didn't play a single more minute. I read that his goal going into this season is only to establish himself in the rotation but now he more than doubled that goal. I think he's proved he is at worst a starting caliber PG. It's easy for us to forget that only 3 months ago, we just hoped that he could play more than garbage time. Let's be patient. There will still be a lot of chances for him going forward.

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  23. Sorry to be pessimistic here, but I don't see how Lin fit into the current Knicks team now. If MDA's offense is to marginalize the role of a scorer like Anthony, the current system is sure to marginalize the role of a PG. Noticed that even Baron Davis and Douglas weren't on the court during crunch time vs the Bulls. The PG role in this Woodson offense is to bring the ball up, pass to Anthony or JR Smith to go iso, wait for a pass back to shoot an open jumper and play hard nose D. That's what Shump was doing and doing well. I don't think Lin fit the aboves, sorry.

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    Replies
    1. Don't worry, Cara.

      Great players like Lin impose their will on the NBA game without pushing out other players.

      Lin played his role under Woodson extremely well. I am all for Lin playing the same role because that's what it takes for the Knicks to win.

      Remember that Lin has to go into scorer mode only when his teammates cannot produce. If the teammates are producing, the Knicks are winning.

      Under Woodson's coaching, Lin won't have to use his body as a battering ram to get wins. That is under the caveat that Carmelo and Stat DO NOT go pass crazy and play too unselfishly.

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    2. True...but I still prefer him running the show with Howard/Lopez in Brooklyn.

      Throw in great supporting players like Humphries, Wallace, Morrow, Brooks and a franchise desperate to make a big splash? It's just an ideal situation for Jeremy and more exciting basketball to watch for us fans.

      Besides, it's good to spread the wealth. Let there be as many competitive teams as possible. Let J-Lin goes where he's needed the most.

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    3. Let's be real. No matter how powerful Anthony is, how well he plays or how much Anthony/Woodson dislike Lin (which I don't think is the case because Lin is so likable), the Knicks owner simply won't let his most marketable player go. Lin will remain in NY for a least several years.

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    4. @Cara I disagree. In the 2nd and 3rd quarters, the Knicks offense was putrid. Once the Bulls collapsed on Melo, the Knicks had nobody else that could penetrate and get into the lane to create open shots or draw fouls, things Lin does very well. Davis is too old, too injured, and too dribble happy to do it. Douglas is not a PG, though he does play solid defense. Bibby is even more washed up than Davis. They were shipwrecked for a while there.

      With Lin I don't think they have that offensive lull. Lin could have made plays when the defense collapsed on Melo, and the game could have been more comfortable for the Knicks. They definitely missed Lin.

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    5. Not so. Jeremy is only restricted this year. After next season, he's an unrestricted free agent who can go wherever he wants.

      He's obviously a smart guy and so is his agent. If Woodson or the Knicks execs misuse him, no one will blame him for leaving. Also, the Knicks have too much money tied up in Melo, Amare and Chandler. So they won't be able to match a huge offer by the Nets. Jeremy would have to take less money to stay.

      According to Grantland, there may be a loophole that allows the Nets to make a play for Jeremy after THIS year. The $5M maximum may be subverted if a team is willing to offer a backloaded 4-year deal.

      Normally, a contract like that based on a 26-game sample would be crazy (no matter how talented the player). Which may be why this loophole hasn't been mentioned until recently. But Jeremy's marketability actually makes it a solid investment. We'll see.

      P.S. I can't believe nobody in the media seems to be able to clear this issue up. Everyone acts like they know and then they have to back-track and qualify their statement ("It is believed that the Gilbert Arenas rule...").

      Delete
    6. But Lin looks to be a loyal person. I doubt he will want to leave the club who gave him the 1st chance. Also he won't take 1 year contract instead of multi year one. Nobody does. Everyone loves long term security and fears injury. Lin is not different to normal NBA players in this regard. So if the Knicks offer a multi year contract to him I think he will definitely take it. I have already accepted that he will be in NY for a long time and let's see how it plays out.

      Delete
    7. Lin may be loyal, but his agent Roger Montgomery is an astute ex basketball player who will advise Lin to NOT use loyalty as the only criteria.

      When Donnie Nelson of the Mavs offered Lin a 1 year guaranteed deal to play his entire rookie season in the D league with zero chance of an NBA callup, Lin and Montgomery wisely steered away from that despite Nelson giving Lin his ONLY chance to play in Summer League. Nelson's offer could not have been easy for Lin to turn down.

      Delete
    8. Lin already told reporters that he would like to stay on this team and to keep this team "from top to bottom" as much as possible. Being the nice guy that he is don't think he'll move anywhere

      Delete
  24. BTW, Anthony sure is loving every minute of it now. Let him have his moment. Lin doubters like SAS sure are enjoying this as well. But doubters gonna doubt no matter what. As for causal fans it is only a "what have you done for me lately". Barring injury Lin still has so many years to prove them wrong. The most important think is that he needs to make sure he fully rehab and won't suffer any major injury in the future. I don't mind he won't play again this season now.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. From now on, teams will just double team Carmelo and keep him from getting the ball. He is basically the entire Knicks offense, and nobody else is a scoring threat. It's sad to see how many Knicks fans have jumped off the Lin bandwagon, and are saying the team is better off without him playing.
      Sports fans have very short attention spans.

      Delete
    2. Whitman,
      Remember that sports "fans" is short for "fanatics". To say that sport fans have short attention span is is correct. They do crave the burst of adrenaline that new players brings and they eventually get tired. But true fans are those who stay through the thick and thin, just like loyal friends. Whoever thinks that the Knicks are better off without Lin is clearly delusional; The Knicks are just going through a winning phase, just like they did when Melo first signed with the Knicks. What happens when they fall into a slump just like they did before Linsanity erupted? They play horrible basketball. So I think it's okay that they jump off. The horses carrying the wagons are tired of holding too much load anyway.

      Delete
  25. 1. Does anyone else think that Stephen A "the racist bigot (unless you're black)" Smith is trolling these boards, and not only trolling but using different usernames? I've suspected the same thing under the comments section of his usually crap articles on ESPN too.

    2. Point guards have no place in Mike Woodson's system. Woodson just needs a Mike Bibby type player to dump the ball off and shoot open 3's. Woodson has zero plays for a playmaking attacking PG like Lin.

    3. There is no way the Knicks can keep Lin. Look at the salaries on the team. Any team that gives Lin a 4 year $44M contract will get him, because the Knicks can't match. Yes Lin has to make $5M next year, but the Knicks can't pay Lin significantly more the year after that and also pay the enormous salaries of Melo, Amare, and Tyson. Look at their total roster spend, they can't keep Lin and keep the other 3 beyond next year.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I don't know who the trolls are, but it doesn't matter because they all hate and deflate the same way.

      These trolls only go after guys with Chinese screennames like me. They know that if they call out anybody else, they'll get piled on. That has already happened a few times here already.

      Delete
  26. Woodson believes that the Knicks can make a run in the playoffs with a healthy JLin. He doesn't want a Mike Bibby type of player who is shooting 26% FG. Baron was on the bench during crunch time because he has been struggling the past 5 games: 9 for 35 FG. True, JLin will not get as many points or assists in Woodson's system, but if JLin plays his game (at least 45% FG / 6+ FT attempts), and Melo continues to dominate on offense like he did today, the Knicks will be dangerous in the playoffs.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Looks like Knicks fans are obessed with Shump now. He does look good on D but I am not convinced he as a PG or a consistent scorer. They now project him an All-Star. It's all good though. Let them hype up him and Anthony. So Jeremy can take his time with his rehab. My biggest fear is that Jeremy has any setback during rehab or rush back. Don't really remind those so called Knicks fans jump off the Lin bandwagon.

    ReplyDelete
  28. I really like the Lin-Dragic comparison. Both seem to approach the game in similar ways. They are fearless round the rim, constantly looking for open team mates, play strong defence and were overlooked in the draft. I think it's tough to say Lin is outright a better player then Dragic at this point of both players careers. Lin hasn't been around as long as Dragic is, and Dragic is producing at a very high level since Lowry's injury. Even before that, Dragic was playing like a potential starter despite coming off the bench. Minus the first half of last season in Phoenix, where half of his rotation team mates were traded or left, Dragic was a pretty consistent producer. I do believe Lin will be better then Dragic in the future though but for now, its tough to claim either is better then the other.

    I honestly don't understand where all this hate for Woodson is coming from though. Woodson has not and will not treat Lin like a rookie. The comments he made about rookies should sit and learn have been completely blown out of proportion. Lin still played major minutes despite the coaching change. Woodson addressed the media saying he wouldn't bench Lin. Why are people still calling him a racist.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Because he has repeatedly questioned Lin's toughness over his knee problem (while not calling out any other injured player) and shouldn't be making disrespectful rookie comments about a 2nd year player in the press.

      One of our very own members here posted a while ago that somebody in upper Knicks management likely got to Woodson about making negative comments about Lin in the press. It sure seems that way to me.

      Woodson won't call out other players about being benched, nor will he say that "other player have played through the same injury". That's called WORKPLACE DISCRIMINATION.

      Delete
    2. Dude, here is Woodson ripping J.R. Smith, telling him that he needs to be more professional on and off the court. Smith is black just like Woodson, not Asian. And by the way ... see my comment below where Stan Van Gundy criticized Lin's defense and stated that the Knicks are better off without him and with Davis starting for now. Is Van Gundy an anti-Asian bigot too?

      http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/knicksblog/knicks_coach_wants_smith_to_look_v386hrJsTAmERHLqnEplJL

      Delete
    3. Unknown, you've got to come up with better arguments if you want to keep flaming me using your race card.

      JR Smith slammed a guy to the ground. That is bad behavior that every coach should publically discourage.

      Jeremy Lin hasn't slammed anybody to the ground. He hasn't been faking injuries. He's not a rookie. Jeremy Lin has done NOTHING to warrant the media criticisms that Woodson has hurled at him.

      Like I said earlier, somebody probably got to Woodson from higher up and set him straight on Lin. That's a good thing because Lin has played very well for Woodson and Woodson has done a very good job coaching Lin.

      The silver lining in all this is that Jeremy Lin and Mike Woodson NEED EACH OTHER. That has been the case this season and will be the case next season.

      Sometimes people get thrown together in order to fight it out. More often than not, RESPECT develops. And Lin is the all time KING of earning respect on the basketball court.

      Delete
    4. I might be mistaken, but I thought Woodson's comment was something along the lines of 'Jeremy has chosen to have surgery instead of playing through it for the rest of the season'. Sure, the comments can be interpreted in more then one way, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's calling Lin out. I highly doubt is has anything to do with racial or any sort of discrimination against Lin. When his coaching tenure started he specifically called out the team, and specific players that defensive intensity has to improve. Why do you think Melo has been such a force on the defensive end as of late. There isn't an issue between either sides and there isn't constant criticism of Lin either.

      Delete
    5. Woodson said that he's known of players that have played through meniscal tears but that only Lin knew how much pain he was feeling.

      When I read Woodson's comments, the first thing I thought was "He thinks Lin is TOO SOFT to play through such an injury".

      Lin's injury is not as severe as a torn ACL or something like that, but it really is not an injury that players should try to tough themselves through. Besides, the MRI revealed clear damage. No wonder Lin was hurting BAD.

      I didn't like the way Woodson insinuated that Lin was not tough enough to play through such a severe injury. In light of his disrespectful rookie comments about Lin and his utter silence about the pain tolerances of other players on the Knicks, I have my suspicions about Woodson.

      I could be wrong, but I also could be right.

      Delete
  29. Jeremy is magic on court. When he's playing, the tempo is faster, play is smoother, other players get a look in. The team is simply better. People have short memories though and right now the team is doing what they need to do: grinding out wins without Jeremy. Which is great. But nobody worth their salt things this is a better team without him.

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    Replies
    1. No one - other than Stan Van Gundy - claims that the Knicks are better off without Lin.

      Delete
    2. You have.

      You don't even think Lin belongs in D1, let alone the NBA. That's why you have flamed all of us here for debunking you with stats and facts every time you come here to criticize us on this boars.

      The problem with your thinking is that Lin is SO GOOD that he's dashed all your preconceived notions about basketball and particularly Asians to bits. And now you're going after people like me who've believed in Lin because of his ability and not his race.

      You know what? I'll give you the same advice that I gave another Lin hater here. JOIN US and marvel at how an undrafted player like Lin can claw his way through the NCAA and star in the NBA.

      You'll discover that this site has a lot of very smart people who have watched the game for a long time and have valid opinions. You'll also find that we are happy to engage in proper basketball discourse with you even though we may not agree with you. If you can't see that already happening on this thread, then you are truly lost.

      Delete
  30. http://zigsports.wordpress.com/2012/04/05/greg-oden-brandon-roy-what-what-happened/

    I really hope JLin is not putting all of his trust into the Knicks medical staff, and getting second opinion on things. It worries me a lot that Jlin is having two knee surgeries in two years.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Lin has done exactly what you suggested.

      He consulted multiple physicians on the issue. He made his own choice to go ahead with the surgery.

      Keep in mind that Michael Jordan missed nearly his entire 2nd year with what I think was a bad knee. He returned and stayed injury free for most of his career.

      Delete
  31. Stan Van Gundy says that Baron Davis is a better defender than Jeremy Lin, and that for the short term the Knicks are better off without him (and Stoudemire) because it makes them a better defensive team.

    Yeah. Right. Sure, Stan Van Gundy. Still say that Dwight Howard was wrong for wanting the guy fired, folks? Again, I am still VERY disappointed in Howard for a number of off-the-court reasons, but he is FAR from the only guy to get frustrated with Magic coaches and management.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/knicksblog/magic_coach_says_knicks_better_defensively_da2me5ZHPq0t6G8L2a5XPI

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So what?

      Stan Van Gundy is an opposing coach. He is paid millions to defeat other teams and make excuses when his team gets beaten.

      Dwight Howard wanted out and made that very clear. His handlers are talking to other teams while being on the Magic payroll. Stan Van Gundy's sour grapes comments about Lin and Stat still don't change the fact that Dwight Howard wanted out and may still want out.

      The NBA and jeremylin.net are not "The enemy of your enemy is my friend".

      Delete
    2. "His handlers are talking to other teams while being on the Magic payroll."

      You mean when the Magic gave Howard permission to seek a trade, but refused to agree to any of the SEVERAL GOOD TRADE OFFERS THAT THEY RECEIVED FOR HIM? Certainly you can't be talking about THAT!

      So, you are saying that Dwight Howard's reasons for wanting out of Orlando are illegitimate? Enumerate the great and positive things that will happen as a result of Howard's continuing to waste his career with that dysfunctional franchise. Howard wanted to leave, the Magic refused to trade him and then went on a massive PR campaign to pressure him not to leave in free agency for now. Howard agreed to stick around for a time, but would not stay long term unless the team made major improvements. Does not a change at coach count as an improvement? Maybe, maybe not but it beats sticking with a guy who hasn't gotten it done. It would also show Howard that the Magic are serious about listening to his concerns instead of just being content to make the playoffs every year and make money from a fanbase for whom the Magic are the only game in town (unless you want to count UCF football).

      Again, Howard is far from the first guy to get fed up with that franchise, and all of those guys can't be wrong.

      Delete
    3. I have worked for contracts all my life, often in conditions much more aggravating than being a multimillion dollar starting center for the Orlando Magic.

      I am old school in that I HONOR my contracts. As long as I am being paid, I fulfill the terms that I signed my name for to the best of my ability. The employer also agrees to fulfill the terms too.

      I'm also old school in that I try not to weasel out of contracts that I signed. If the terms are not to my liking, that's just too bad because I agreed to them. Similarly, I hold employers to their contract and expect them to fulfill their terms.

      Many times I have signed on and worked for employers under poor conditions. As best I could, I accepted my terms and fulfilled my deals. I would keep my mouth shut and do my job HAPPILY, even when I didn't always agree. When it was time to renegotiate, employers and I would set up new terms or walk away.

      No matter what anybody says, it is Dwight Howard's signature on that contract. He needs to be a man about it and fulfill it. If he wants to go somewhere else, he can wait until free agency. He should NOT be blowing up his team and ruining for his coach and teammates in order to collect his millions.

      This is the NBA where players routinely force teams to trade them. But I am old school enough to believe that a deal is a deal, no matter how apologists like you try to spin it. Dwight Howard is under Magic contract, and he shall fulfill his terms.

      Delete
  32. I agree with Khuang on this oneregarding howard. Honor your contract. You accept all the good but not willing to accept the bad. It's bad enough that the owners are foolishly sabotaging their own livelihood by foolish deals and mismanagement, but now you've got players trying to be managers, engineering their own trade demands, promoting their brand. Damn just play basketball. You are paid. millions, we dont care. Play out your contract to the best of your abilities. Period

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  33. I think this argument on whether Jeremy is a great athlete or not is a moot point. It seems we all agree that he is a good enough athlete to become a great player. Just because you are spectacular athlete means nothing (ie Gerald Wallace). Jeremy has heart and brains and provided he can overcome injury (gosh am I the only one worried), he will take it to the next level. As for the dunking though, Jeremy can dunk "MUCH" better than I think he shows in games. I think he holds back on dunks. Check the two dunks out - one easy 2 handed dunk (barely jumps) and a sweet reverse.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz3sKI_0Oe0

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    1. Athleticism has always been the biggest knock against Jeremy Lin. He's ASIAN, after all.

      Lots of people, including NBA scouts, look at Lin and automatically assume that he cannot possibly compete with NBA players from an athletic standpoint. And yet the athletic testing and gamr highlights show Lin as a player who has ELITE athleticism. Some of us veteran observers, and I am only one of many, do not need those fancy tests and can see with our eyes Lin exhibiting that NBA athleticism against the NBA's most athletic players.

      All NBA players are masters at their craft. They all have unbelievable skills that mortals like me cannot truly comprehend. At that level, athleticism matters because every edge counts.

      I firmly believe that if Jeremy Lin was not the incredible raw athlete he was, he would not have popped up on NBA radars and certainly would not be able to play his way into the NBA via Summer and D League. He simply wouldn't have been athletically able to make the plays needed to succeed against NBA talent.

      Delete

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