Friday, January 6, 2012

Jeremy - Running Out Of Chances

With Jared Jeffries expected back next week, JLin has just a few games to get any PT. Once JJ is back and if they're no other injuries, Jeremy will likely be put on the inactive list.

41 comments:

  1. Send him to the d league that way at least we can see him play!!

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  2. Forget inactive roster, release him and become a free agent in DL. Then when a team has an injury and needs a PG, they can pick Lin up immediately.

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  3. Agreed with "real-dsb." The bulls may lose CJ Watson indefinitely. It'd be a great opportunity for some PT behind Rose. And guarding Rose in practice everyday will help his D reach another level.

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  4. The intention from the beginning was to have Lin fill up a roster spot for the Knicks, or as insurance in case another guard is injured. When Kenyon Martin becomes available as a free agent in March, Jeremy will be waived. They made that clear from the beginning. He was not meant to contribute or play any meaningful minutes.

    As fans, we are expecting too much, and not seeing the big picture. The NBA does not see any potential in Jeremy Lin as a player. That is reflected in his low salary and non-guaranteed status.

    He can definitely improve his game. Just like Chauncey Billups, who went from a nobody scrub to the MVP of the 2004 finals. But it took him many years to get there.

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  5. "like Chauncey Billups, who went from a nobody scrub to the MVP of the 2004 finals."

    Billups wasn't exactly a nobody scrub. He was the 3rd overall pick of the 1997 draft, and he started at PG as a rookie. It did take him many years to get from starting PG to all-star level, though.

    That supports the point that for NBA execs, it's all about their sunk cost/investment. Look at the former Knicks starting PG Charlie Ward. In his first year, he stunk. His per-36-min stats: 3.3 ast, 6.5 to, 1.6 stl, 21% fg. If he was an undrafted player, there's no way they'd bring him back the following year. Compare that to Lin's rookie year per-36-mins: 5.3 ast, 2.3 to, 4.2 stl, 39% fg.

    But because Lin was undrafted, he was cut after his first year. Meanwhile, despite mediocre stats his entire career, Charlie Ward eventually became the starting PG for the Knicks for 5 years! If Lin were in Ward's position as a 1st round draft pick, Lin could have accomplished that too. But since he wasn't drafted, then Lin needs the right situation to come along (like a Kurt Warner).

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  6. Everyone needs to calm down. I saw Lin's time against the Kings off NBA League Pass, it wasn't that bad. It wasn't his best but it was far from the horrific choke job that so many comments here assert or exagerrate. In limited minutes he had a nice rebound and steal, he also had an assist and should have had two. I don't think he actually charged on that play after he stole the ball. When he got tied up he won that jump ball so it didn't hurt the team. The worst play was when he first got on the court and tried to break the defenders going left. I think he had it in his head to dispel the scouting report about him only going right.
    I'm not saying he played good, it was just a raw performance. I wouldn't say he played poorly though. And Isiah Thomas simply played well, Jeremy Lin didn't get completely beat on any defensive play, Thomas is just ridiculously fast and the Knicks play poor team defense.

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  7. [That supports the point that for NBA execs, it's all about their sunk cost/investment. Look at the former Knicks starting PG Charlie Ward. In his first year, he stunk. His per-36-min stats: 3.3 ast, 6.5 to, 1.6 stl, 21% fg. If he was an undrafted player, there's no way they'd bring him back the following year. Compare that to Lin's rookie year per-36-mins: 5.3 ast, 2.3 to, 4.2 stl, 39% fg.

    But because Lin was undrafted, he was cut after his first year. Meanwhile, despite mediocre stats his entire career, Charlie Ward eventually became the starting PG for the Knicks for 5 years! If Lin were in Ward's position as a 1st round draft pick, Lin could have accomplished that too. But since he wasn't drafted, then Lin needs the right situation to come along (like a Kurt Warner).]

    I agree but this is really short sighted thinking from NBA teams. Some of those bench players really hurt their teams and it's worth it to eat that money to get better minutes from other players. In the NFL teams eat salary cap cuts all the time to field the best possible team regardless of salary.

    I think Jeremy Lin, or his agent, need to be loud and aggressive right now. It's clear they won't play him and with Iman back, Jeffries back soon, and Kenyon Martin down the road, he's wasting his time here. He should force his way out of NY if he can, even through threats or other tactics, so that he can be available for teams like the Spurs who have a clear need.

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  8. I agree that JL was never meant to get heavy minutes, but considering how god awful Douglas and especially Bibby have been, it's unfair and unwise to not have played Lin ~10mpg early on. Just see what he can do, for pete's sake.

    Anyway, it's all about the coach. A GM can see potential in JL, but he can't make the coach play him. D'Antoni is a clod; Smart played favorites. McHale was the ideal coach for Lin...a smart guy and great player who really appreciated JL's skills and effort. Unfortunately, the Rockets were unable to trade Dragic in the failed Gasol deal. So there was simply no room for JL and Dragic and Flynn (who by the way is barely playing at all).

    Houston is really where I want JL to end up. Heck, even the Rockets online community appreciated him.

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  9. Yi made his debut tonight in the D-League playing for the Texas Legends. The game is still live.

    http://www.nba.com/dleague/games/20120106/TEXAUS/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp2021100120

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  10. This is not a Yi fan site. Just because you're a fan of Lin doesn't mean you're a fan of Yi.

    The reason JL has such a strong following isn't just his ethnicity, but things like his college background (Harvard) and the fact that he makes exciting plays on offense AND defense.

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  11. Looks like Toney got the hook today after a poor performance. 12 mins, 0/5 fg, 0 ast, 3 to, team low -12 plus/minus. Well, if this keeps up, Toney might end up in D'Antoni's doghouse, which means Bibby would be the starting PG, and maybe Lin has a chance for a few mins. But Bibby was -11 plus/minus today. LOL, if your 2 PGs are -12 and -11 in a game that your team won, that's not a good sign.

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  12. My ideal team for Lin is still Dallas. 38-year old Kidd just injured his back, so he'll be out at least 1 game, and who knows if it'll flare up again throughout the season. Dallas doesn't even have a real backup PG. Supposedly Beaubois is the backup PG, but I don't feel he's got PG skills (career 1.3 A/TO), and he's regressed each year, even in scoring.

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  13. Looking back at 2010, Jeremy's agent really did a disservice to him by signing with the Warriors. The Mavs were willing to invest in his development and his future.
    But he made a decision to jump into the NBA immediately, even if he wasn't ready, with a Warriors team that didn't have a role for him. Short term glory over a long term career.

    btw. Warriors Coach Mark Jackson reaalllllyyy likes Charles Jenkins enough to start vs. Lakers. He had 2 points, 1 rebound, and 1 foul in 10 minutes. He even started over the veterans, Nate Robinson and Ish Smith (DNP). Mark Jackson playing favorites again.

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  14. We have all seen the potential of Robinson and Smith - career backups at best. I wouldn't think twice to give my own pick every opportunity to get better. Robinson ended up playing 31 minutes; winning still is the bottom line.

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  15. Schumpert is starting in place of TD tonight.

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  16. 5 minutes to go in the 4th quarter and the Knicks are up on the Pistons 94-69. Where's Lin ?
    It doesn't look like they will play him at all. In fact it would probably be bad for the team, because Lin is not expected to stay long term, they would rather use those minutes on a player they are comitted to like Reynaldo Balkman, Bill Walker, etc.

    Let's look at the positives of Jeremy playing any minutes for the Knicks:

    1. Less wear and tear on his body. Unlike a heavy minutes player like Kobe or Monta Ellis, he'll stay healthy and have less injuries because he didn't play a lot of minutes early in his career. Maybe he can be playing basketball longer and not have to retire early like Brandon Roy (Knee issues).

    2. He's still practicing with the team and working out in the Knicks state of the art facilities. All for free. So while he's not getting valuable playing time, he is improving in small increments through training.

    3. He's still getting paid a decent salary. Maybe not as much as an NBA veteran, or 1st round draft pick, but he is being paid each day he is a Knick player. $800,000 contract, distributed among the 65 games of the shortened season... that's about $12,300 per game for sitting on the bench.

    Let's not obsess over this. Some of us have watched the entire game, or checked box scores every 20 seconds looking for a silver lining. There isn't.

    Basketball is historically a Black dominated sport, and will continue to be as long as fans don't care. Look at how quickly Golden State fans have already written off Jeremy Lin as useless, and are crazy about rookie guard Charles Jenkins.

    Jeremy Lin is intentionally being left out of the basketball court because of his color, and deeply rooted perceptions about Asian athletes. The Knicks do not see any potential in him, and he does not fit on the team's long term plans.

    Let's just stop watching watching it so closely. Find another sport or hobby to take interest in.

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  17. I thought you post was intelligent up until you brought Lin's asian heritage into the equation ABC. I know as fans were supposed to believe the best in Jeremy, but in reality, at the moment, and at the very best, he's a sub-par 2nd string point guard. The fact he's getting no playing time has nothing to do with his race and more to do with his skill level. I hope Lin takes it as encouragement and keeps working hard!

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  18. Agree with hugh. You don't give up just because of adversity. Jeremy Lin has already done a great amount to motivate and inspire Asian-American kids. Who knows what the next generation of athletes can accomplish?

    It's clear to me the Knicks don't have any plans for him when they only play him 4 minutes in a 20+ point blowout win. Was a four quarter audition too much to ask for when you're leading by 30 points?

    Regardless, Jeremy looked A LOT better tonight. Was active and had a nice drive. Played good help defense on the perimeter. Padded his free throw shooting.

    http://www.dopewar.com

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  19. Hey ABC Baller, in this same thread, you stated the following:
    "The intention from the beginning was to have Lin fill up a roster spot for the Knicks, or as insurance in case another guard is injured. When Kenyon Martin becomes available as a free agent in March, Jeremy will be waived. They made that clear from the beginning. He was not meant to contribute or play any meaningful minutes."
    The Knicks consider JLin the end of the bench guard. You can't tune into Knicks games thinking they'd suddenly give him rotation time, especially now that Shumpert is back and Bibby is stroking it well from downtown. Shumpert looks like the real deal though. The kid could be an all star in a few years.
    Back to Lin... I agree with what Donnie Nelson said last year that he needed 2 years of seasoning before he's ready for the NBA. He has improved his jumper over the summer, granted it's not battle-tested yet. I think he needs to continue working on his PG skills and decision making, whether that happens on the NBA level, d-league, or europe.

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  20. If Jeremy hadn't done so badly in that 4 minutes he played in the Sac games, in my opinion, he would have gotten a few minutes each game after that. Don't forget he got a minute or two in his first two games, then the third game he got 4 minutes against Sac. Then nothing until tonight.

    When the Knicks picked him up, they were short handed and certainly wanted to see if he could fill their need. And D'Antoni did give him opportunities, it's just that he was not able to capitalize. Can't expect D'Antoni to hand him significant minutes right off the bat because Jeremy was and is still largely unproven. Like I said in a previous thread, that Sac game set him back a few games. Hopefully he gets some PT in the next game, however little is better than nothing. His PT is a factor of how well he performs on the court, period. We need to be a little more subjective.

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  21. Let's not cry racism when none exists. I'm all for Jeremy getting a chance but let's take a step back. When he came to Harvard, he wasn't a starter and came off the bench his freshman year. I tracked Jeremy throughout his Harvard career and he had some bad games his freshman year. As a sophomore, he came a started and did reasonably well but still had some bad games.

    My point is that I feel Jeremy needs time to adjust to the speed / athleticism of the NBA. Jeremy has shown he can hang in the D-League so that isn't an issue. I think Jeremy CAN do well and it would be great if he could do it while playing. But since he's not, he'll have to do his best while at practice.

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  22. C Dub said...

    "The Knicks consider JLin the end of the bench guard. You can't tune into Knicks games thinking they'd suddenly give him rotation time, especially now that Shumpert is back and Bibby is stroking it well from downtown. Shumpert looks like the real deal though. The kid could be an all star in a few years."

    Shumpert came back 3 days ago. What about the games when he was out ?
    Lin did not play in his absence.

    Bibby has only been shooting well for the past 2 games, before yesterday he was 3 for 16 from the field, and 1 for 10 from three point range.
    When he was bricking so many shots, why didn't D'Antoni pull him out, and put in Lin ?

    When a player is shooting 18% and struggling to play defense ..... Why didn't they put in Lin, if he was intended to be a backup ?

    This Knicks do not plan to keep or develop Jeremy Lin .... they signed him to be a temp, a roster filler. Read the article.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/999225-knicks-rumors-addition-of-jeremy-lin-is-a-sign-kenyon-martin-is-big-apple-bound

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  23. Video of Jeremy's first FG as a Knick vs Pistons.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI5UD0Cb2bU

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  24. ABC, tonight's game is your answer, Jeremy played off the ball the whole time. Obviously D'Antoni doesn't trust him with the ball. He's had 3 TO's in the last 8 minutes played, that's a whopping 15 TO's per 40 minutes! They wanted a PG but JLin hasn't shown it, not yet.

    On the other hand, Bibby has been a pretty good PG in the NBA for years. Nobody doubts his ability to handle the rock.

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  25. "Basketball is historically a Black dominated sport, and will continue to be as long as fans don't care."

    Basketball was historically a white dominated sport. Only since probably the 70s did blacks become the majority in the NBA.

    "Jeremy Lin is intentionally being left out of the basketball court because of his color, and deeply rooted perceptions about Asian athletes."

    Assuming that you're a real fan and not a troll, let's drop the racism card. It only makes Lin fans look bad. Were Yao Ming and Yi Jianlian left off the court because they were Asian? You probably feel that Lin has the skills to play in the NBA, and is not being given the opportunity to prove it. Well, that happens to undrafted black players too. When you're an undrafted player, you also need to have right situation/break come up.

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  26. Call me crazy, but Lin is not the only undrafted NBA player who I want to stick in the league.
    I am also a huge fan of Lin's Dallas and Houston teammate/roommate Omar Samhan. Like Lin who I think is going to be a terrific NBA guard, Samhan is a guy that I feel is equally as capable as Lin of becoming a fine winning NBA player. Samhan has gotten less chances than Lin has, though Samhan did outplay DeMarcus Cousins and Jordan Hill in summer league 2010. I think Samhan could be doing more for an NBA team than any big man in the 2010 draft is doing. I root for Samhan just as hard as I do Lin, though Lin has had more NBA chances.
    Samhan and Lin have been linked since their prep days. I want them both to succeed in the NBA.

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  27. I like Samhan too, he was pretty good at Saint Mary's. He's got size at 6'11", but he's not really athletic, and doesn't have many post moves. He does have a decent midrange jumper. He's playing in Euroleague, which is actually a very good place for players to get valuable experience.
    Hopefully he can get into better shape over there and come back slimmer, stronger, and faster. Euroleague also trains players to become better shooters because the game is played differently from the perimeter.

    There are many options for undrafted players: D-League, Euro league, Israeli League, China ... etc.

    Whereas before it was NBA or bust.

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  28. To me, Samhan is marvelously athletic.
    He doesn't appear quick, yet he has tested as being a very fast runner. Also Samhan has footwork and post moves similar to Kevin McHale. Besides, the guy led his wimpy little St Mary team into the NCAA tournament and averaged 30 on national TV!
    I don't see Samhan struggling to get up and down the court because of poor conditioning. He may look pudgy and not ripped, but Samhan doesn't get pushed around or outjumped. It's no different from how people initially said Jeremy Lin lacked NBA athleticism even though he basically ran circles around Kemba Walker in college and more than kept up with John Wall in summer league. Besides, Kevin Love is killing every PF out there and he doesn't look like an athletic freak.
    I think that Samhan is ready right now to play in the NBA. He can come play for my Suns where he'd destroy our backup bust center Robin Lopez who I feel has no game and was drafted only because he had the same haircut as Anderson Varajeo.

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  29. I agree, Samhan has been overlooked. Probably because he played for a school that wasn't very well known for basketball. If he went to Duke, Georgetown, or Pitt ... then he definitely would have been drafted.

    The only other good player who came out of St. Mary's was point guard Patty Mills ... who had a lot to do with the team's success and gave Samhan's some open looks.

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  30. In basketball and especially the NBA, there is a perception that a guy has to "look" a certain way to succeed. That's how guys like 6'8" 250 scrubs like Kentucky's Daniel Orton (2 ppg and 2 rpg in his one year in college) get drafted in the 1st round while proven players like Samhan and Lin go undrafted that same year.
    Looks, especially nowadays, are becoming more important to so-called talent evaluators. People think that if the looks are there, the ability will be too. In truth, it usually is the reverse. There are a lot of guys being drafted that have the looks but have no game.
    Both Samhan and Lin have game. Lin is getting his NBA chance and is up and down, sort of like John Wall in Washington who is on the verge of a meltdown. Samhan would be up and down too, sort of like Derrick Favors who hasn't done anything in the NBA or DeMarcus Cousins who has proven that he can kill his coaches while shooting poorly.

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  31. By the way, I like Enes Kanter's game. With his unrefined post moves ans decent foot speed, he is a poor man's Omar Samhan.
    Jeremy Lin, by the way, has had a better NBA and D league career than his Mavs teammate Dominique Jones who was drafted in the 1st round. Come to think of it, Lin might be more highly regarded than Wes Johnson who was taken #4 the year Lin went undrafted. Also, Lin seems to be more valued than Knicks 2nd rd pick Andy Rautins who I think was taken before All Rookie selection Landry Fields.
    If I were an Samhan, Lin, and 2nd round pick Landry Fields would be more effective on an NBA court than any combination of the other names I just mentioned.

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  32. Samhan is a "marvelously athletic" and has "post moves similar to Kevin McHale"! Really? The HOF'mer McHale? The McHale Sir Charles said had the best post moves ever out of that position?
    And, Enes Kanter, a lotto pick, "is a poor man's Omar Samhan", an undrafted D-league! Sorry! You have lost all credibility. This thread is spiraling down out of control.

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  33. Kanter isn't exactly tearing up the NBA. His lack of production is consistent with his lack of proven experience. Who's to say Samhan couldn't do better?
    Samhan is no Kevin McHale, but he claims to pattern his game after the Celtics great. Besides, Samhan as a college player scored quite a few points and was named Defensive player of the year in his conference. That indicates that Samhan is not a mere defensive sieve.
    Just because a guy can run and jump doesn't mean that he has the syrength to hold position. Nor does it mean that he can score in the post. A guy's speed in the 100 yd dash doesn't mean that he'll switch on defense fast enough
    Take a look at Kevin Love. He is shorter than Samhan and looks unimposing, yet he is scoring 26 and averaging 15. Most people call him unathletic, but I see his strong base, his quick feet, his good balance, and his soft skilled hands.
    Just because a guy like Samhan or Jeremy Lin goes undrafted doesn't mmean they can't play. There are many undrafted players who become good NBA players. Besides, I pointed out a bunch of guys who were drafted before Samhan and those guys have not played well in the NBA.

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  34. Now it's Kevin Love! Lots of guys have Love's size but can't rebound and shoot like Love can. KL was a stud in high school, was a stud the first day he walked in Pauley, and he's a stud and all star now. Putting Samhan in the same sentence with all these GREAT players is just plain wrong. He has to go league first, don't you think? It's like you're saying all the GMs, coaches and scouts in the NBA are idiots.

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  35. I'm not saying that NBA people are idiots, though even you'd have to agree that picking guys like Olowokandi #1 or Milicic #2 or Kwame Brown #1 doesn't look so good.
    Besides, guys like Anthony Morrow and Wesley Matthews came out of nowhere as undrafted free agents. Who's to say that there aren't other undiscovered players like Lin and possibly Samhan that can contribute?

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  36. There are busts in big men but there ain't any big man surprises, I mean Wes Matthews type surprises. Even the ones you mentioned are top picks and have been in the NBA since day one except the Candy man who was ROY and retired in 2007. Milicic and Brown are considered busts being top 1,2 pick but still are serviceable centers at NBA level.

    All the undrafted surprises are mostly athletic specimen in G/F postions.

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  37. True. But occasionally undrafted big men like Ben Wallace, Joel Anthony, Anthony Mason, Brad Miller, and Greg Stiesma slip through. I still think Samhan could play in the NBA too, though he has a lot to work on.

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  38. KHuang said:

    "Just because a guy can run and jump doesn't mean that he has the syrength to hold position. Nor does it mean that he can score in the post. A guy's speed in the 100 yd dash doesn't mean that he'll switch on defense fast enough
    Take a look at Kevin Love. He is shorter than Samhan and looks unimposing, yet he is scoring 26 and averaging 15. Most people call him unathletic, but I see his strong base, his quick feet, his good balance, and his soft skilled hands."

    Being a big post player requires a different skill set than being a guard. Centers and Power forwards don't need to be very athletic, because most of their game is in close quarters within the paint. Having good footwork, technique, and body positioning, is more important than running fast or jumping high. In that way, being a low post player is sort of like a martial arts skill: Wrestling, Judo, Boxing.
    That's why so many athletic big men like Patrick O'Bryant and Kwame Brown fail, while slower guys like Chris Kaman and Kevin Love succeed. A lot of it is mental strategy and skill.

    However, being a point guard in the NBA requires more athleticism, speed, agility, and shooting from outside the arc. And because, naturally, there are way more 6'-3" tall basketball players out there than 7'-0" players. So there is more competition for that position. Jeremy has a much more difficult path to become a point guard in the NBA.

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  39. Yes, there is a lot of PG competition.
    When Lin went undrafted, the knocks against him were that he was too unathletic to keep uo with NBA athletes, that he could not shoot from outside, and that he could not compete at the NBA level after Harvard. We here at Jeremylin.net knew that he could succeed in the NBA if given the chance.
    Lin can play above the rim, he can grab rebounds in traffic, he can get blocks on NBA players, and he can beat NBA defenders off the dribble (including Tayshaun Prince whose ankles Lin broke). Those plays take NBA athleticism, and that's why Jeremy Lin will keep gwtting NBA chances. Contrast that to a guy like Jonny Flynn who was drafted #5 and has proven that he cannot do any of those things. Only a guaranteed contract is keeping Flynn (and many other NBA players) on a roster ahead of Lin.
    The irony is that the knocks against Lin's athleticism have proven to be utterly false. If anything, it's Lin's athleticism that is keeping him in the NBA. If he can learn the NBA game, Lin will prove that we and guys like Donnie Nelson and Joe Lacob were right about him being an NBA player after all.
    The more Lin bounces around the NBA, the more he will learn the NBA game. I believe that it is only a matter of time before he gets offered a guaranteed contract.

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  40. Lin is undrafted with a non-guaranteed contract. Teams see him as expendable, and not worth very much except as a cheap way to fill up a roster spot.

    A drafted player, will get playing time no matter what. Because the team has invested a lot of money and a lottery pick on him. Even if he messes up, they will keep playing him. Lin on the other hand, must make zero mistakes.

    Like when the Warriors coach waived Jeremy in favor of their new 2nd round pick Charles Jenkins. He thought that Charles must be better because he looks more athletic, and came from a slightly tougher college conference than the Ivy league (Colonial Athletic). But as we see he hasn't produced much when given 10 minutes as a starter. And when he was matched up against Jeremy when the Knicks were in town, he couldn't stop JLin from blowing past him, while JLin had no trouble stopping his drive to the hoop. More athletic ? A better Point guard ? I don't think so.

    Look at Jimmer Fredette, a 1st round pick and "The future" franchise player of the Sacramento Kings. He was the top scorer in the NCAA. But his skills haven't translated to the NBA. He can't defend NBA level guards, doesn't drive the lane, or make good passes. Not to say that he can't get better, but he couldn't meet the high expectations in a very competitive and physical sport.

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